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desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126227: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:23:38 PM

I can't help but wonder how those Republicans would react if we started calling every hate crime perpetrated by a Christian a product of "Radical Christianity".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126229: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:27:25 PM

[up][up] They'd go batcrap, I assume. Well, bat-crap-er than they already are. Maybe you Americans should start doing that.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126230: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:27:33 PM

I can't help but wonder how those Republicans would react if we started calling every hate crime perpetrated by a Christian a product of "Radical Christianity".
I kind of want to start doing that now.

[up] On it!

edited 14th Jun '16 2:27:56 PM by sgamer82

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126231: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:51:46 PM

I think that if we're not going to call groups like the Klan, or the IRA, or the UVF/UDA "Radical Christianity" we should avoid calling ISIS et al "Radical Islam".

I'll also note that to my recollection nobody demanded that the Pope condemn the IRA or the Archbishop of Canterbury condemn the Protestant paramilitaries—despite the fact that, as the ostensible leaders of those religions, such a demand would make more sense than demanding random Muslims condemn the actions of groups who may not even be members of their sect.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126232: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:55:54 PM

[up] I don't think the Pope actively supported the IRA the same way various Muslim religious leaders support terrorism etc.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#126233: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:01:29 PM

Please don't ignore all the muslim organizations and figures who speak out against violence, or who helped the survivors of this shooting.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#126234: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:02:23 PM

It might be related to groups of atoms somehow.

Muslims who are mad because they only have one electron.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126235: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:14:26 PM

[up][up][up]Did I say he did? If he had then asking him to condemn it would just be monumentally stupid, wouldn't it? I said that I don't remember anyone demanding he condemn it. Which given that the Pope is at least the nominal leader of all Catholics would be a whole lot more reasonable than trying to get such a condemnation to work in Sunni Islam, a religion that hasn't had a Pope-equivalent since the Mongols killed him in the 1200s.

Sure, some Islamic religious leaders support terrorist activities. So did some local priests in Ireland. Your point? Demanding that all Muslims everywhere must speak out against terrorist activities is a frankly ludicrous position, given that nothing a cleric from one sect says is liable to have an impact on a member of another sect. If you want to see the actions of a member of a particular sect condemned you are going to have to get a religious leader from that sect to do it. And even then, given the fractured nature of the religion, there's a good chance that it will mean absolutely nothing to the terrorists—they'll simply find someone else who will justify their crimes.

You know what demanding that all Muslims have to be held responsible for the actions of a few does achieve? It convinces them that you see them all as a monolithic bloc and that the many will be punished for the behaviour of a minority. And that in turn only helps groups like ISIS.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#126236: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:22:00 PM

I think part of the problem with using terms like Radical Islam, Islamic Extremism, or Islamic Fundamentalist is that these terrorists argue that their actions are in line with the true interpretation of Islam and that anyone in the religion who disagrees with them is "doing it wrong".

So, when one argues that essentially the Koran is the inspiration for terrorism and that Muslims who aren't terrorists are ignoring the Koran and/or are secular- that's exactly what ISIL and the like are trying to prove.

In fact, although I think Radical Islam is not a bad term, the other two I mention are terrible because they imply that idea that Muslims who are terrorists are the ones who are interpreting the religion more faithfully.

edited 14th Jun '16 3:22:21 PM by Hodor2

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#126237: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:38:00 PM

A hacking group affiliated with the Russian government has infiltrated the DNC, stealing two files of opposition research on Donald Trump.

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126238: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:40:02 PM

What.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126239: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:49:48 PM

@Hodor: I'm not angling at a No True Muslim thing; rather, I'd like the fact that Islam (and other religions) have crappy parts to be acknowledged. Then again I'm pretty anti-religious, so. *shrugs*

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126240: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:53:20 PM

So am I, but I'll be damned if I give one inch to islamophobic bigots to stand on.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#126241: Jun 14th 2016 at 3:58:32 PM

Everything but the outgroup.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126244: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:05:23 PM

The fundamental problem is that religions are ideologies and identities as well. This means there's a rather thin line between bigotry and "respectable criticism". There's certainly overlap between anti-theism and Islamophobia (read: Richard Dawkins), though this isn't true for all of them.

Leviticus 19:34
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126245: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:11:11 PM

The sad thing is Dawkins didn't used to be so bad. Sadly, since Christopher Hitchens died, Dawkins seems to have decided someone else needed to fill the role of anti-Islamic atheist and stepped into the position. Sam Harris was, of course, always that bad, and guys like Bill Maher, who I used to like, have been getting worse since ISIS got started.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#126246: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:17:21 PM

religions are ideologies and identities as well.
And that is different with other ideologies how?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126247: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:19:47 PM

Didn't Sam Harris say some stuff about how we needed to start profiling Muslims or something? I recall a buddy of mine who was discussing some electronics guy who passed away being approached by Harris about doing something like that, and the guy pretty much telling him how nonsensical that was.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126249: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:23:31 PM

@Desdenelle@Vandro: He refers to this piece, which makes and excellent point, and which you should totally read, and which is absolutely not relevant to my current position.

It's not about outgroups, or selective tolerance, it's because I've been on the receiving end of Islamophobic inquisition during the War on Terror, on multiple occasions, and that this scarred and traumatized me.

I know for a fact that there's a fuckton of problems with Islam, and I sincerely believe that it should be done away with entirely, along with all ethical systems that aspire to draw morality from the supernatural.

I will not give ammunition to the assholes that think that the worst expressions of Islam are the True Legitimate Ones, be it the religious nutjobs or the Islamophobic asshats that equate every Muslim to them. I'm all for informed, respectful, considerate criticism of Islam, from a place of sympathy and caring', not from one of contempt and prejudice.

And, again, vandro, I will suffer the bigots so long as they don't try to hurt others for their beliefs. In fact, I will actively tolerate and seek to understand them, and not just because I want to change their minds.

edited 14th Jun '16 4:28:21 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#126250: Jun 14th 2016 at 4:30:43 PM

I get it, your position is rather tempered by islamophobic harassment of yourself, wrong it is for to me draw such premature conclusion of it. Mea culpa.


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