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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#126201: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:08:26 PM

Anyone who thinks resurrecting internment camps in the United States is a good idea needs to spend some time with a history book.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126203: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:21:07 PM

Obama rules this joint.

Obama Explains Why He Doesn’t Use The Term ‘Radical Islam’ For Islamic State, Al Qaeda.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126204: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:26:10 PM

Obama needs to refresh his Kor'an knowledge. There are a lot of verses advocating Jihad.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126205: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:31:50 PM

What kind of Jihad?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126206: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:32:34 PM

[up][up]There's a lot of Torah verses advocating genocide, among other horrible things. Doesn't mean that, if some Jews use them as inspiration for acts of wanton murder, we should give them legitimacy by calling the conflict against them a conflict against Radical Judaism.

[up]That too. Perhaps Desdenelle needs to refresh his knowledge of the Qur'an, yes?

edited 14th Jun '16 1:33:17 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126207: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:33:55 PM

I'd argue the "radical" part of "radical Islam" is the important modifier. Though I'm a bit wary of using the term "extremist" because it implies "more so". "A particular pseudo-religious ideology that spun off from Islam" would be a more accurate.

Leviticus 19:34
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#126208: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:34:27 PM

Do keep in mind that Jihad is also more traditionally in Islam the struggle with ones self against sin. Of course the holy book is going to promote that. A lot of the pro-Jihad passages in context are really just telling people not to sin so much and to grow their self control.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126209: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:34:30 PM

Didn't the guy who shot up a black church draw some inspiration from the Bible? We didn't call him a radical Christian, we don't call terrorists who draw some inspiration from Jewish texts Radical Jews, generally we don't call extremists who are inspired by some Buddhist ideas radical Buddhists.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126210: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:37:18 PM

[up]I don't recall hearing any religious connection to the Charleston shooting.

I'm also not sure if that's the case. There is a Wikipedia article called "Christian Terrorism", for example. I can think of a few radical Christians-WBC and the KKK, for example.

edited 14th Jun '16 1:37:51 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126211: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:38:28 PM

The Charleston shooting however is clearly linked to racist hate groups.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126212: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:38:53 PM

[up][up]We don't call them "Radical Christians", though; we call them "Nutjobs".

edited 14th Jun '16 1:39:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126213: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:40:50 PM

[up]The term I've usually heard them referred to as is "Religious Fundamentalists".

Leviticus 19:34
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126214: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:44:01 PM

Y'know, I do appreciate president Obama's logic . It's in the same vein of something like referring to Osama bin Laden as "Laddie" or "Bibi". It weakens them because it doesn't give them the image they seek.

There was a discussion earlier in the thread about the Y'all Qeada guys wanting to be labeled terrorist to legitimize their acts as being against an oppressive government. I've reason they ultimately floundered is because rightly or wrongly, we didn't do that.

Same logic by the sound of it.

edited 14th Jun '16 1:45:06 PM by sgamer82

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126215: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:44:33 PM

@Septimus: for example, Sura 9, verse 5:

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."
Or Sura 2, verse 191:
"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."
There are more.
I think we should call the child by its name — if it's Radical Islam we should call it that. If it's Radical Judaism (ie Baruch Goldstein) we should call it that. If it's radical Christianity (for example Joseph Kony) then we should call it that. If an attack is religiously-motivated then yes, it's religiously-motivated and we should address that. Saying that calling it "radical Islam" gives it religious legitimacy is not right because those guys already have religious legitimacy from their own people.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#126216: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:46:41 PM

@Quran advocating violence/jihad: jihad means "struggle", you struggle against vices and sin, you struggle against oppression, etc.

And the only time the Quran advocates violence is when you or your people are attacked. It says you should never be the aggressor.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126217: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:48:22 PM

In fact it should probably be noted that those quaran quotes above seen to be in reverse order, since the first is Sura 9 and the second is Sura 2

edited 14th Jun '16 1:48:29 PM by sgamer82

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126218: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:52:44 PM

[up] I wasn't quoting in any particular order. *shrugs* Not to mention that the Qur'an is ordered from the shortest to the longest Sura, IIRC.
[up][up] Dude, read the verses again. If "then kill the polytheists wherever you find them" is not telling people to kill other people, then I don't know what is.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#126219: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:55:03 PM

Isn't there something in Islamic scripture about converting infidels by the sword, or words to that effect?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#126220: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:55:53 PM

Isn't translating the text into english to be iffy anyway since arabic <-> english is suitably dissimilar so that even slight misses can change the meaning?

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126221: Jun 14th 2016 at 1:57:41 PM

[up][up][up] Sura 2 specifies attaching when attacked. 3-8 could be a continuation of that when it reaches 9, where the violence is more pronounced

edited 14th Jun '16 1:57:57 PM by sgamer82

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126222: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:08:50 PM

More importantly, it's pretty clear that mainstream Muslims don't find the command to SEARCH AND DESTROY POLYTHEISTS to be binding and/or relevant to their situation, otherwise all of South and Southeast Asia would be a perpetual bloodbath. Or rather, they would have never managed to expand there the way they did, wich was through trade.

I think we should call the child by its name — if it's Radical Islam we should call it that. If it's Radical Judaism (ie Baruch Goldstein) we should call it that. If it's radical Christianity (for example Joseph Kony) then we should call it that. If an attack is religiously-motivated then yes, it's religiously-motivated and we should address that. Saying that calling it "radical Islam" gives it religious legitimacy is not right because those guys already have religious legitimacy from their own people.

Who would "their own people" be, then? "Radical Religion X" implies that it's a legitimate, even extra-authentic, expression of Religion X, and that all followers of Religion X are "their people", instead of just their tiny fringe of pricks. What then, should we call the police in Ferguson practicioners of "Radical Law Enforcement"? Did Josef Mengele do "Radical Science"?

Desdenelle, I'm sure you're familiar with pricks picking and choosing bits and pieces of the Torah and Talmud and quoting it out of context to paint modern Jews as utter maniacs. That is very wrong. Try not to do the same stuff to others, please.

edited 14th Jun '16 2:10:54 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126223: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:16:20 PM

[up] Science isn't an ideology, it's a methodology, so it has no place here. Law enforcement isn't an ideology either, it's a societal (I think this is the right word?) function.
As to "their own people": everything from Qaradawi to Yassin and Khamenei.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to argue isn't "all Muslims are terrorists/maniacs/murder advocates". The point is "Obama's refusal to refer to a thing by its name does nothing to delegitimise it". Basically what I'm saying is that a lot of religions have scripture that orders killing and maiming and whatnot and that radicals (or extremists, or whatever) can and do gain religious legitimacy by pointing at that scripture and saying "See? That's what Allah/Adonai/God wants!".

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126224: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:17:18 PM

Also: Radical Islam does not mean "Cool Islam".

Leviticus 19:34
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126225: Jun 14th 2016 at 2:19:54 PM

It might mean Tubular Islam, though.


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