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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#126001: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:29:47 AM

After Sandy Hook, what's the point anymore? Fucking children got gunned down, and those fuckheads in Congress still voted down basic gun control.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126002: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:30:49 AM

Part of the problem is that guns that are useful to commit crimes are also the ones that are legitimately useful for civilians. For example: Flamethrowers are currently quite legal, but have probably never been used in a crime in the US.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126003: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:31:18 AM

[up][up]Vote Democrat and pray to whatever god(s) you favor?

[up]The legislative environment around personal weaponry is just ridiculous. No argument there. I'd imagine that flamethrowers aren't used in crimes for a similar reason as chainsaws: the likelihood of injuring yourself with them is extreme.

edited 13th Jun '16 9:33:45 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#126004: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:33:04 AM

Also, banning weapons that look like the AR-15 and its descendants is going to result in something similar to the Assault Weapons Ban - which will just make gun owners angrier.

While there will be people who will be happy to see direct impingement rifles banned from civilian hands, this pretty much is the worst reason possible to do so.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126005: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:38:54 AM

That's a strange position, Fighteer. Banning handguns is actually the part of your ban that would get the most support, because they are by far the preferred weapon in every kind of crime that isn't a mass shooting and have very few purposes (there are specific hunting applications) other than target shooting and shooting humans.

(It should be noted that the vast majority of murders in the US do not involve mass shootings.)

Also, I disagree about shotguns. They're actually a significantly better tool for home/property defense (which is a right and should be) than handguns, but they aren't something you can easily carry around in public or conceal. (Okay, you can conceal it if you've sawed off the barrel, but those are already illegal, as they should be.)

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126006: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:40:36 AM

@Ramidel: The problem is that a legislative ban on handguns is just not something that will ever pass muster under the Second Amendment. While I think they need to be dealt with as well, removing handguns but allowing rifles strikes me as schizoid in the extreme.

What I see as the core problem with rifles is that they have become a propaganda tool, with the right waving them around like massive penis extensions to prove how willing they are to use threats of violence to get their way. And then you get the occasional massacre that could only have been committed in the way that it was by using that kind of weaponry...

Pragmatically, handguns are where gun control advocates should be focusing. Psychologically, those smug assholes waving their AR-15 knockoffs around are just begging to get metaphorically punched in the face. If it's a Chewbacca Defense tactic, it's certainly working. Rifles are terror weapons, pure and simple.

edited 13th Jun '16 9:46:11 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126007: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:47:20 AM

The problem is not specific weapons. There's nothing special about AR-15s that make them the spree shooter's weapon of choice — there are certainly other weapons that would fit the bill just as well if AR-15s were for some reason not available. Trying to tackle gun control from the point of view of restricting certain types of guns is stupid, because you either have to define those types so broadly that you end up with a de facto ban on guns in general (which runs straight into the second amendment) or you focus on pointless details and get things like the Assault Weapons Ban (which banned things that had no actual bearing on how the weapon could be used).

The problem is specific people. You don't have to keep certain guns out of everyone's hands, you have to keep all guns out of certain people's hands. People with a history of violence, people with a history of mental illness, people with ties to terrorist organizations, etc. Right now all we really do is background checks, which is a start but not nearly comprehensive. Things like mental illnesses only show up on background checks if the courts have gotten involved (eg, they were judged mentally incompetent or involuntarily checked into a psychiatric facility by court order). The sort of danger signs that indicate someone is a gun risk are almost always there, but only available after the fact. We need to do a better job of making sure that that information is available before the person is able to buy a gun — while at the same time taking steps to make sure that we're not denying your average law-abiding person who poses no danger to the public from buying guns they want because zomg guns are scary, you guys!!

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126008: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:52:53 AM

I get weary of the mental illness argument. Most people with mental illnesses are more likely to hurt themselves than anybody else. If you start denying people the right to buy guns based on illness then you are effectively denying the right to law-abiding citizens. And if you're gonna do that you might as well deny them to everybody (which for the record I'd be fine with).

edited 13th Jun '16 9:57:20 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126009: Jun 13th 2016 at 9:53:23 AM

Yeah, the AR-15 isn't special at all. They'll just go to something else. AKs maybe, the AK-47 also isn't patented.

The AR-15 is just totally saturating the market is all. Nothing about it is outstanding. Hell even among assault rifles I'd give it a solid meh in terms of capability.

edited 13th Jun '16 9:54:26 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#126011: Jun 13th 2016 at 10:01:25 AM

In an effort to change gears here, at least for a little bit:

Supreme Court: No, Puerto Rico can't unilaterally restructure itself to get out of its debt over creditors. PR faces a $2 billion debt payment on July 1.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#126012: Jun 13th 2016 at 10:08:15 AM

Oh great. They plan on 'leaving it to congress to solve the problem'... That's going to go over well.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126013: Jun 13th 2016 at 10:26:32 AM

Cho shot and killed 33 people in Virginia Tech with a .22 and a 9mm handgun and that wasn't in a super crowded place and those two are considered the lowest end of the "stopping powah" belief when it comes to weaponry.

And Adam Lanza didn't purchase or got any weapons from a store or dealer, he killed his mother on while she slept and stole her guns, which regardless of all background checks and waiting periods wouldn't have done anything to prevent the shooting.

The Utoya shooting in Norway was done with a Mini-14 with a lot of crap on it and that is a gun that pretty much stayed invulnerable to the AWB.

In this one the only thing outside the box about the guy was how he was on the FBI watch list but got removed when he was considered a "no risk" by the FBI, and that isn't exactly a list everyone can browse and access and has a stupidly low bar of entry, given how some stupid jokes on twitter are enough to put you in one. The FBI would hardly ever have the resources to track all the people it puts on its watch list.

But then when the Dems want to pass gun control laws, they focus on the scary parts like the Assault Weapon Ban did, in which doesn't really make any weapon more or less deadly, just makes them look plain awkward and stupid. A Rugger Mini-14 has as many rounds, barrel length and the caliber of an generic AR-15. If things were more limited to background checks, gun registry and safety evaluations the norm in all states most gun owners would be fine with it.

The problem is that the gun control advocates ask for an inch and end up trying to take a mile, [http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/02/14/batfe-proposing-ban-common-ar-15-ammo-m855/ like pushing to ban the most common and cheap surplus ammo in the market]] or show a complete lack of understanding on how firearms work, those are things that put gun owners at odds with the gun control crowd.

That is if the very own Federal Government isn't making things worse like ATF being responsible for several gun running operations that resulted in a few thousand guns lost and ending up in the hands of criminals and gangs.

Inter arma enim silent leges
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126014: Jun 13th 2016 at 10:45:14 AM

That particular case was incompetence so staggering I strain to believe there wasn't foul play.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126015: Jun 13th 2016 at 10:51:14 AM

I get weary of the mental illness argument. Most people with mental illnesses are more likely to hurt themselves than anybody else.
That seems like a very good reason to restrict their ability to own guns, when something like two thirds of gun deaths are suicides. I'm not saying that there should be a blanket ban on anyone with any variety of mental illness owning a gun, but I don't think you can legitimately argue that whether or not someone is mentally ill (and what sort of condition they have, if any) isn't relevant to whether or not they should be able to own a firearm. If someone has violence schizophrenia, then they shouldn't be owning a gun.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#126016: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:04:44 AM

[up][up][up] Note how the majority of the weapons used in these shootouts are American weapons (AR-15s, Mini-14s, etc.). The only time a European/Asian weapon (AK-47) was used was in France.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126017: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:05:46 AM

That's just gotta do with market saturation than anything else.

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126018: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:09:13 AM

[up][up][up]People with proven mental illness and suicidal tendencies are already barred from getting a gun though legal means in most US states anyway. But you need a doctor to fill a report and submit the report to the authorities for those people to fall in the grid.

But again how many people knew about someone being suicidally depressed before they blew their brains out? Even then plenty of mental illness aren't that easy to pick up. Plenty of Bipolar people have been described as "moody" rather than being diagnosed,

edited 13th Jun '16 11:09:31 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126019: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:14:33 AM

What does mental illness mean in this context, anyway?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126020: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:22:41 AM

Conditions that severely impair one's capability of conducting rational though in a manner they can put themselves or others at risk.

For example if a doctor prescribed you anti-depression medications you're effectively barred from getting a weapon through any purchase that requires a background check.

edited 13th Jun '16 11:24:27 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#126021: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:24:54 AM

And funny how mental illness is always blamed when the shooter is white, forming a form of individuality that separates the rest of them from "normal" people, but when the person is Muslim, black, etc. there's a "cultural" problem with the community that must be addressed.

Funny how that works.

New Survey coming this weekend!
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126022: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:26:30 AM

People with proven mental illness and suicidal tendencies are already barred from getting a gun though legal means in most US states anyway. But you need a doctor to fill a report and submit the report to the authorities for those people to fall in the grid.
Right, but that's my point. We need to do a better job of connecting the dots and getting all the right information to the right people. As often as not, the information is out there, but no one puts it together until it's too late.

And funny how mental illness is always blamed when the shooter is white
Seriously? The shooter in this case wasn't white and called 911 to proclaim his loyalty to ISIS during the hostage situation and we're talking about mental illness right now, not going "grrrr dem brown people, can't trust 'em".

edited 13th Jun '16 11:30:24 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#126023: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:37:54 AM

[up] Do you not understand context? I wasn't referring to THIS situation in particular. There was a point to be made about how the media frames mental illness.

New Survey coming this weekend!
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126024: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:40:02 AM

[up][up]And in that case it is an institutional issue not really a legal one. Passing more laws when the US Law Enforcement system can poorly enforce the current ones isn't going to do much to curb spree killings or crime in general other than creating legal clusterfucks and debates.

Anyway, going by the news, the US police is doing a poor job enforcing the laws. All that thanks to the craptastic training and the poor accountability.

edited 13th Jun '16 11:42:24 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126025: Jun 13th 2016 at 11:47:08 AM

But you need a doctor to fill a report and submit the report to the authorities for those people to fall in the grid.

Or you have anyone who wants to own a gun have to sit down with a doctor for half an hour so the doctor can make an assessment of them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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