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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#125951: Jun 13th 2016 at 5:28:42 AM

As long as the Insane Troll Logic of "bad guys will still have large magazines" will be applied, I don't see any significant progress being made. I really wonder what anything short of a civil war could help raise the issue to a level significant enough to get things done.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#125953: Jun 13th 2016 at 5:52:59 AM

If it's normal to buy it in the U.S than whether it's normal anywhere else is a bit irrelevant to the conversation.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#125954: Jun 13th 2016 at 5:56:59 AM

The wider context is irrelevant to the conversation?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125955: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:00:20 AM

Nothing but a blanket ban would have stopped him, the things he bought were pretty normal.

A ban on domestic abusers buying guns would have, or just a basic ass psychological evaluation to determine if he was going to go shoot up a bunch of people.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#125956: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:01:29 AM

[up][up]In this specific instance, yes. He said what the guy bought wasn't unusual. In the context of the U.S it wasn't unusual. Wider context doesn't really mean much for that part there.

edited 13th Jun '16 6:02:23 AM by LSBK

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#125957: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:11:26 AM

Or a ban on people who are on a terror watchlist from purchasing.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125958: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:14:50 AM

He'd been taken off the list, though honestly the idea of the FBI being able to maintain a list (after providing sufficient evidence to a judge) of terror suspects who can't have guns isn't a horrible idea.

Though currently terror watch lists have a tendency to be petty screwy,

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#125959: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:27:35 AM

Aye, the current "terror watchlists" and "no fly lists" have a habit of randomly including people with no logic to justify their inclusion. And it's apparently insanely difficult to correct any errors.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#125960: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:27:46 AM

It's only screwy insofar as you can't confront your accusers, like with the no-fly lists. If people were allowed to attempt to challenge their status as "potential terrorist," it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#125961: Jun 13th 2016 at 6:52:47 AM

That's what the NRA used to be about: teaching gun safety.
How did the NRA turn into the current brainless shit show. Like when was the period it went to respectable gun organization to "Just another Right Wing clown parade"?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#125962: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:06:25 AM

So...is everyone just forgetting the fact that a bomb was used as well? Like, I don't think gun control could have possibly have stopped that.
The gunman did not use a bomb in the attack. The only explosive in the incident was a breaching charge used by the SWAT team. The only weapons the gunman was armed with was a handgun (I haven't heard anything more specific than that) and an AR-15 rifle, both of which were purchased legally. I heard this morning that they found a third weapon in his van, but no news yet on what type it was or whether it was legally purchased or not — but it's kind of a moot point anyway, since he didn't have it with him during the attack.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#125963: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:21:57 AM

[up] I think they're talking about a separate incident, the Gay Pride Parade in LA, which the police had prevented.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#125964: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:36:06 AM

Didn't the S.W.A.T.'s team's explosive cause some deaths too? I mean, it's clearly less than what could've happened if he wasn't stopped, realistically speaking, so that might be why people thought he had one by default, since some deaths happened cause of it.

But regardless, the point was if he wanted to have an explosive ready, he could. Not that he did. In fact, many got what you said wrong, Jovian. This is why they pointed out how easy it was to make explosives(also part of why a simple weapons ban alone won't work and we need more to try and keep things safe more reliably).

Shadow?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125965: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:44:02 AM

I'm going to chip in here (long, busy weekend so I couldn't participate actively) to note that perfect safety is a chimera: you can't have it, and trying to get it will drive you crazy.

That said, we can clearly be doing more to prevent weapons from being in the hands of people with criminal intent and/or a history of antisocial behavior. The current political environment is one of abject, mindless resistance to any improvements to gun control laws, which is contributing to a situation in which these incidents are virtually guaranteed to keep happening.

We also need to find ways to dial back the anti-Muslim sentiment in our society, which breeds radicalization, as well as hostility towards LGBT people, which has led some to say horrific things about this attack, such as that it was just retribution.

It is wrong to blame guns exclusively for the Orlando attack, just as it is wrong to exclusively blame ISIS or Islamophobia or homophobia. However, each of these is a contributing factor.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#125966: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:46:21 AM

[up]Can I steal your post for a Facebook status?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125968: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:49:49 AM

Didn't the S.W.A.T.'s team's explosive cause some deaths too?

Nope, not at all, I don't think they ever caused any injuries.

But regardless, the point was if he wanted to have an explosive ready, he could.

Then why didn't he? If it's apparently so easy to build a bomb, undetected and safely with no training then why didn't he?

In the end he didn't have a bomb, so this entire idea that he could have had a bomb is just people guessing.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#125969: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:54:14 AM

The first reports were that there were up to three explosions that were connected to it which was wrong information but people are using that as fact.

Anyway I think the worst out of all this is Trump's response to all this has boiled down to an 'I told you so' and to blame immigrants, even though the shooter was not one at all. [1]

edited 13th Jun '16 7:55:59 AM by Memers

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#125970: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:54:23 AM

I thought that there were reports that he had some manner of explosive device on him, but that it wasn't used.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#125971: Jun 13th 2016 at 7:58:30 AM

Didn't the S.W.A.T.'s team's explosive cause some deaths too?
Not that i've heard. It didn't even fully breach the wall they used it on, in fact — they had to use their armored vehicle to finish punching the hole.

This is why they pointed out how easy it was to make explosives(also part of why a simple weapons ban alone won't work and we need more to try and keep things safe more reliably).
When people using homemade explosives to kill each other becomes a major problem, then we can worry about that. People killing each other with guns is currently a major problem, so we should focus on that. "But people will just make bombs instead!" is not a valid reason for not making an effort to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people. It's missing the point at best and a deliberate distraction from the real issue at worst.

I thought that there were reports that he had some manner of explosive device on him, but that it wasn't used.
Not as far as I'm aware. I haven't heard any reports of him having any weapons on him besides the handgun and the AR-15.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125972: Jun 13th 2016 at 8:00:43 AM

On the subject of Trump, Krugman: A Party Agrift. The Republican Party has been incapable of properly criticizing Trump's many business failures and scams because they operate from a paradigm in which those things are just hunky dory.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#125973: Jun 13th 2016 at 8:36:24 AM

Also, it's a bit easier to track idiots buying explosives, if they don't render themselves incapable of planting a bomb first - see the tannerite lawn mower incident.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#125974: Jun 13th 2016 at 8:37:27 AM

It is a valid reason, though. We aren't going to keep weapons out of their hands in the first place by banning guns.This is how it really goes in the real world. We need to prevent the person from getting a weapon, and that requires us to find a way to make sure we're sure they'll be violent and untrustworthy. A psychology test(which is a regulation) will help more because it's easier to catch someone. And keep them on watch, which is a good start in helping prevent casualties. It's far harder for them to have a high body count if they simply are watched all the time, and taken down faster. It's also why I outright called my preference for 0 deaths a Perfect Solution Fallacy. I obviously want it(as many do), but I know all we can do is lower the count.

What we do need to do is proper regulation and make sure that the problemsome person is found out. Again, the weapon choice isn't the problem in itself(and while it's nice that weaker weapons are forced, to help reduce the head count, it's only a short term goal that won't fix the overlying issue that we aren't catching these guys early enough to try and prevent it). Perfect safety will never happen. But we are clearly not doing enough to figure out that they can go crazy fast enough.

It's cool to ban certain ridiculous weapons outside of the army, but that's only a small thing one can do.

Shadow?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125975: Jun 13th 2016 at 8:37:32 AM

[up][up]It's true that homemade explosives tend to fail spectacularly, and getting the kind of training you need to make them properly is not simple given the FBI and BATFE going nuts on them in ways they can't with guns.

[up] Irene, the problem with guns in this nation is a chicken-and-egg one. So many are in private hands now that banning their sale entirely will just cause a black market to erupt and give more power to the people who already own them. But it is utterly stupid to allow personal use of anything larger than a handgun, because they have no viable use in self-defense. Yes, yes, I know: hunters want special privileges. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

There is no long term solution to gun violence that doesn't start with getting the most dangerous weapons out of private hands, even if it's a slow process. Controlling who can buy guns and what kinds of guns are available for purchase are both necessary components of a solution.

edited 13th Jun '16 8:41:06 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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