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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#125801: Jun 12th 2016 at 4:37:31 PM

Fun fact: after San Bernardino, Clinton's poll numbers spiked, more than Trump.

So, whatever that's worth.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#125802: Jun 12th 2016 at 4:48:22 PM

99.9% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally. Having said that "people will do it anyways" is not necessarily a good reason to not make a law.

Leviticus 19:34
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#125803: Jun 12th 2016 at 4:58:28 PM

The US is the only first world nation that has this issue. Seeing as the major difference is the ease of access to guns it must play some part in these crimes.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#125804: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:01:27 PM

[up][up][up]One way this could hurt Trump is if he sticks to his "ban Muslims" solution, which doesn't address the ones are already here.

And the kind of answers to that "problem," usually involving the curtailing of civil liberties, receive strong opposition. But it depends how many Americans will go "fuck them they're Muslim" and re-enter the post-9/11 climate.

[down]Touché.

edited 12th Jun '16 5:03:27 PM by Eschaton

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#125805: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:02:06 PM

We exited the post-9/11 climate?

i'm tired, my friend
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#125806: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:05:55 PM

@Thatguythere 47 (last page): that's not true. Israel had 8 cabinets since Rabin's assassination in 1995; out of them, only half were right-wing (and coincidentally were all Bibi cabinets). The rest were left-wing or centrist.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#125807: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:06:20 PM

I am pretty sure most guns obtained illegally were first obtained legally. So, banning guns could in theory prevent guns from being obtained.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#125808: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:16:10 PM

[up]Hypothetically, it could. But in practice, whenever a politician with a gun-control agenda gets elected there is always a surge in gun sales, for fear of such a ban being enacted. (And such legislation almost always contains a Grandfather Clause, which renders it toothless, anyway.)

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#125809: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:16:28 PM

If the ease of gun access had nothing to do with these tragedies, then everywhere else should have a way higher rate. They don't.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#125810: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:17:24 PM

[up][up] Well, retroactive legislation, especially legislation that criminalises stuff, is a Bad Thing and a No Go in most proper legal systems.

edited 12th Jun '16 5:17:29 PM by desdendelle

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#125811: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:22:17 PM

Are people familiar with the concept of a Buyback Program?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#125812: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:26:06 PM

[up][up][up]I'm not disputing that easy access to guns makes it easier for spree killers to cause murder and mayhem. I'm just saying that a total ban on all guns wouldn't stop it. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol or drugs, either.

[up]Buyback programs are not an effective solution. The type of guns they get rid of are not the type of guns used in violent crime. They're mostly a way for people to get rid of worthless old junk that they can't sell on the regular used gun market.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if there even is one.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#125813: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:28:03 PM

They exist, but they do run into problems in the US and rarely actually lower crime. One kind of funny example: a buyback program in Seattle resulted in gun enthusiasts showing up to buy guns that would have been sold to the government for more money.

My gun solution: if a gun is stolen from you due to your inability to keep it locked up properly and then later used in a crime, then you're given a big fine. I might include a similar law involving gun sales.

edited 12th Jun '16 5:31:13 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125814: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:28:29 PM

That and sometimes you just tell people to suck it and tough shit, you give them a time period to turn their guns in, but if they keep them, tough shit.

I mean honestly banning isn't what's needed in the US, requiring background checks is needed, not allowing felons to have guns is required, basic training is required, pych evaluations could be required.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#125815: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:29:44 PM

A forced buyback/major restructuring of what kinds of guns can be sold might work but it would be political suicide + militia terror attacks would be on the rise again.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#125816: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:37:12 PM

Well, Australian politicians did commit political suicide in that manner, and are rightly proud of it.

Either that, or the party thought they were expendable and this was a great opportunity to scuttle them for long-term gain, and later chose to spin it in the most self-flattering way.

Point is, politicians can and do commit suicide when they think it's worth it. I mean, look at the current GOP and the whole judge confirmation fiasco.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#125817: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:39:28 PM

The difference is, I don't think a lot of the GOP actually know it's political suicide, in the long-term, at least.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125818: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:42:42 PM

Plus it's gonna be hard for the GOP to fight on this one, it's could end up being a Regan style situation. In the end when the GOP start protesting gun restrictions that would stop this happening again, they're going to be siding with a Muslim terrorist. That's gonna hurt their numbers like hell.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#125819: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:45:48 PM

Background checks are already required, if the purchase is made from a licensed dealer. He makes a phone call, and the FBI gives him a yes-or-no answer. If you pass, the dealer charges you $20. If you fail, he charges you $200. (The latter is often posted to discourage those with criminal records from wasting his time and hanging around in his store.)

Trouble is, there really isn't any way to prevent straw purchases, or the so-called "gun show loophole." The latter is the provision that citizens who reside in the same state may sell rifles and shotguns (not handguns) among themselves with no paperwork, as long as they deem the receiving party to be an upstanding citizen. It's a judgement call, and to eliminate that would send a really bad message to the voting public; it's political kryptonite, so no politician will touch it.

The term "gun show loophole" is a misnomer; dealers at a gun show must still run checks and have buyers fill out paperwork. But nothing prevents two non-dealer attendees from making a private sale elsewhere...

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#125820: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:48:44 PM

[up][up]I could see a pretty easy work-around: blame the attack on ISIS, declare that we need more troops in the middle east to stop this from happening again. For bonus points: encourage gay people to buy guns.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125821: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:53:51 PM

Trouble is, there really isn't any way to prevent straw purchases, or the so-called "gun show loophole." The latter is the provision that citizens who reside in the same state may sell rifles and shotguns (not handguns) among themselves with no paperwork, as long as they deem the receiving party to be an upstanding citizen. It's a judgement call, and to eliminate that would send a really bad message to the voting public; it's political kryptonite, so no politician will touch it.

It being political kryptonite doesn't matter, it should still be done. The 2nd amendment gives a right to own a gun with reasonable limits, not a right to sell a gun to criminals for a quick buck.

Somebody sold this gun his guns legally, why has that guy not been arrested for aiding and abetting a terrorist?

[up] Then they make it so that Obama is trying to stop ISIS getting guns, but they want to stop him? As for gay people getting guns, the GOP doesn't want that, remember they want white people to be shooting and attacking LGBT people, can't do that if the LGBT people are armed.

edited 12th Jun '16 5:55:20 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#125822: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:56:00 PM

Because they didn't know he would shoot people with it.

Non Indicative Username
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#125823: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:57:30 PM

if it was a private sale they judged him to be of good character, they were wrong and 50 people s dead because of them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#125824: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:58:50 PM

They can't read people's mind. There is always a risk of people buying your stuff to commit murder.

edited 12th Jun '16 5:59:36 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#125825: Jun 12th 2016 at 5:59:14 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Of course, that gets undermined by the fact that the culprit wasn't a fresh off the boat immigrant or refugee, so it's not a physical invasion. Not to mention that would require that Trump commit to "boots on the ground," and as far as I know he's never done that (in any clear fashion at least, I may be missing something).

It is an issue of ideology. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump revives his idea to "talk to Bill Gates and shut down parts of the Internet."

[up]Yes, but seemingly any attempt to mitigate or account for that risk is decried as human right's violation. And I think that's bullshit.

edited 12th Jun '16 6:07:10 PM by Eschaton


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