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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#125326: Jun 9th 2016 at 6:32:17 AM

I don't like Sanders much but I love Warren.

If it was her instead of Sanders running I could see things being a lot different as Warren has more of a head on her shoulders than The Bern.

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#125327: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:08:23 AM

Wait, about that civil forfeiture thing:

will give them then 7.7 percent of all the cash the highway patrol seizes
Is that even legal? Paying a private company with dirty money? (and it is dirty by definition, since that's the pretext invoked for seizing it in the first place)

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125328: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:11:48 AM

There is no doubt that some Bernie Sanders supporters exhibit racism and sexism. It is categorically untrue that Sanders was running an explicitly racist or sexist campaign, nor did Sanders condone the presence of racist or sexist elements among his supporters. Okay? Let's assume good faith, here.

What Sanders did was create an umbrella under which the "antisocial left", for lack of a better term, felt safe to come out and express itself, resulting in some of those racist, sexist, violent, and otherwise undesirable outbursts on social media and in public. This is an inevitable outcome when you run a "revolutionary" campaign — some people take that word to heart and cast off their resentfully adopted veneer of civilized behavior. The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized.

Sanders bears responsibility to the extent that he framed his campaign in such a way as to incite these sort of people, and he has more than enough political experience to know that he was doing so. Ergo, he considered the ends (getting nominated for President) to justify the means (bringing out all the people, some of them nasty, who don't fit comfortably inside the Democratic tent).

edited 9th Jun '16 7:14:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#125329: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:17:19 AM

Also:

How many of them weren't paid shrills from other campaigns.(China and Russia do this bullshit all the time)

And how many are there exactly.

I can't help but think people are blowing up a chiefly vocal minority.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125330: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:19:01 AM

Hanlon's Razor: most racist, sexist, violent people are racist, sexist, violent people, not paid shills. And they exist on the left as well as the right.

edited 9th Jun '16 7:19:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#125331: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:29:17 AM

Is that even legal? Paying a private company with dirty money? (and it is dirty by definition, since that's the pretext invoked for seizing it in the first place)
I don't think it is, but IANAL, and the laws regarding civil forfeiture tend to be deliberately vague. I'm more curious to know how/if the company would refund their 7.7% cut should a broke victim successfully manage to sue.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#125332: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:29:42 AM

I've had the impression it was more of the regular old "our cause is just and I am justified" True Believer-ism that was fueling much of the outrage and outbursts that people have been critical of, though others certainly adopted racist and sexist lines of attack.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#125333: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:33:17 AM

Double Hanlon's Razor:

Ratfucking campaigns.exists, and this is exactly the sort of ratfucking that happens.

I'm not saying there aren't any of these types, but:

  • They might be smaller than actually believed.
  • I would not be surprised if a number of them were ratfucking plants from the other campaigns. Again. This happens all the time.

And thirdly, why is Sanders the sole one being held up to this standard of responsible for all those in his name. He consistently condemned these people.

This is like tying Hillary to the fucking People United Means Action (PUMA) PAC.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125334: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:45:40 AM

We are talking about them because Sanders' candidacy, along the same principles as Trump's, brought out the "revolutionary" minded people among the political fringes that don't normally have a voice in their respective parties. Unlike Trump, Sanders is politically aware enough to know this would happen, and his discouragements were half-hearted at best. Nobody is pretending that this is an exclusively Sanders phenomenon, but a statistical comparison of threats of violence issued by supporters of each candidate might be revealing.

Anyway, Sanders is old news now. He lost. Let the news shows do their post-mortems of his campaign.

edited 9th Jun '16 7:46:27 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#125335: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:46:43 AM

With all the talk of plants that comes up I have to wonder how often that actually happens in real life. Especially these days. Seems like such a stupidly convoluted plan to enact. Especially with people who really are that way are more than willing to broadcast that to the world.

So yeah, I think I'm going to be very dubious of such speculation. That really is all it is, speculation. With nothing backing it up, in this case.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#125336: Jun 9th 2016 at 7:56:39 AM

I don't think Clinton would be ratfucking Sanders. You don't get down into the mud like that for people you don't see as a threat, and she never saw him as a real threat. A challenge not to be taken lightly, yes, but not a threat.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125337: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:07:01 AM

Right. Sanders had to tear down Clinton's image if he wanted to win. This required a certain amount of going after her as a person as well as her record. It required validating some of the right-wing attacks that have been flung at her over the past 25 years. It required condoning his surrogates, official and unofficial, doing things that didn't jive with his ideals of running a high-minded, issues-based campaign.

Clinton didn't have to play that game, and for the most part, did not. I can't recall a time when she wasn't respectful towards Sanders and his ideas.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#125338: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:48:36 AM

When has the Clinton campaign called Sanders' criticisms sexist, outside of perhaps the "is she qualified?" thing?

I was mainly referring to the Bernie Bros narrative, for which there is good reason to assume that it comes directly from the Clinton campaign, seeing that they did the same thing eight years ago with Obama. Maybe I should not have mentioned the Clinton campaign, but at least the media have been attacking him and his supporters relentlessly over things like that.

There is no doubt that some Bernie Sanders supporters exhibit racism and sexism. It is categorically untrue that Sanders was running an explicitly racist or sexist campaign, nor did Sanders condone the presence of racist or sexist elements among his supporters. Okay? Let's assume good faith, here.

I agree up to this point. However, can we agree that these elements are a small (but maybe vocal) minority? Of course it is terrible if women are being harrassed for supporting Clinton, but 1) the majority of Sanders supporters are young progressives, so it is insulting to equate them with these people and 2) I was mainly referring to people calling everyone who has criticism of Clinton a 'Bernie Bro' (for instance, people who are concerned about her Wall Street ties). The specific example I quoted said that Bernie Sanders would have not such large-spread support if he is female, which is blatantly untrue, in my opinion.

Also, have you ever heard the man speaking? He condemns violence, sexism and racism in nearly every speech he makes. He is not a brilliant communicator, but that is not his fault.

So yeah, I think I'm going to be very dubious of such speculation. That really is all it is, speculation. With nothing backing it up, in this case.

Actually, there is some evidence backing this up - Google 'Correct the Record' (I would have post a link if I could).

Clinton didn't have to play that game, and for the most part, did not. I can't recall a time when she wasn't respectful towards Sanders and his ideas.

What about her blaming Sanders for the Sandy Hook massacre? Also, Sanders never mentioned things like Benghazi, despite of what you are implying.

edited 9th Jun '16 9:06:01 AM by Perian

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#125339: Jun 9th 2016 at 8:52:58 AM

Never mind

edited 9th Jun '16 8:55:56 AM by Hodor2

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#125341: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:18:00 AM

The amount of people who are just tired of Bernie's bullshit outnumbers the amount of people *actually* paid to be CTR "shills".

I could write an entire book on Sanders' failings as a candidate, CTR be dammed.

New Survey coming this weekend!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#125342: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:25:41 AM

Well someone from the Democratic party just swung by my house and asked me some poll questions. I feel like a useful part of the political world now.

Oh really when?
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#125343: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:30:40 AM

I don't find that any more significant than voting.

Non Indicative Username
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#125344: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:35:28 AM

@Perian

Your Warren comparison doesn't hold up because while Warren and Sanders are politically similar, Warren presents very differently from Sanders which is my point. She has to dress well. She has do her hair nicely. She has to make sure she doesn't raise her voice too much, even when sticking it to Trump. Etc, etc.

Sanders gets away with dressing poorly. He gets away with having hair like Doc Brown. He gets away with shouting almost everything he says in his incredibly thick accent. He gets away with wagging his finger at people and talking down to people. These are all things that a female candidate, be it Warren or Clinton, would get crucified for.

Think about all the people who criticize Clinton for "being too angry" or "shouting too much". Then think about who she's running against, be it Sanders or Trump and ask yourself how that accusation is even being leveled when she's a whole lot calmer on her worst day than either of them are on their best.

Sanders has benefited from being a man, because his whole persona—not his politics, but his persona—is something that only a male politician can get away with.

edited 9th Jun '16 9:38:40 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
#125345: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:37:18 AM

[up] Sanders benefits from being a man period. as much as any other man benefits from being a man.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#125346: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:38:22 AM

[up][up]Now I'm in polls and do votes. I feel useful.

Oh really when?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#125347: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:40:39 AM

@Ramidel

Oh the government would crush any attempt at revolution. Of that I have no doubts. What I'm saying is that in this leftist fantasy that types like Sarandon push in which the government and army just magically vanish before the tide of the revolution, the militia guys are still going to be there, and they are going to have more guns than your average leftist "revolutionary". I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I have this sneaking suspicion that Charleton Heston owned more guns than Susan Sarandon does.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#125348: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:42:35 AM

Any "revolution" that involves dismantling the power structures that keep our government functioning would by necessity open the door to the suppressed right-wing movements who think that power grows from the barrel of a gun, and the leftists would be largely defenseless against them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#125349: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:44:17 AM

I guess that part of the Left are hoping that the whole military switches to their side — or disarms itself — fairly early on.

Keep Rolling On
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#125350: Jun 9th 2016 at 9:50:18 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] I actually agree with that - I said myself in my original post that there may be some subconscious sexism involved with certain criticisms regarding Clinton's personality or demeanour. However, I made the Warren comparison mainly to criticize the idea that Sanders supporters do not support Clinton because she is a woman, as the large overlap between Sanders and Warren supporters shows. If Warren had ran, she would probably have gained the same base of supporters as Sanders did now.


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