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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
@Protagonist- That's a good way of putting it.
But something I think that Trump really underscored for me is that while most politicians have more than their fair share of ambition, it's anomalous to have someone seeking power for reasons other than to do good (again, with mileage varying as to what good means).
That being said, I will acknowledge that depending on the policy/action, good intentions can become irrelevant. For instance, Cruz wanting to monitor Muslim Americans and carpet bomb the Middle East for poorly justified but sincerely believed reasons is not much better than Trump wanting to do those things For the Evulz.
edited 5th Jun '16 4:20:04 PM by Hodor2
Yet despite knowing them you still say that "There isn't a politician in the world whose a good person."?
That's pretty dark. Either way, if you want to insult people you know if you're personal life that's not our business,s but please stop insulting members of the forum, it's not nice.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sounds about right.
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Listen, I won't argue that the decisions of the upper echelons of society aren't sometimes necessary, but I don't think that really absolves someone of their actions, it just explains them. So yes, I will maintain that people with significant power are almost always bad people. No matter what way you slice it, Obama is responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths. I don't think that's something that can ever be called just or right. Perhaps its necessary, but I cannot in good conscious claim it's a good thing that thousands of lives have been ended. Beyond a certain scale, it's effectively impossible for any decision to be made without harming anyone.
edited 5th Jun '16 5:16:59 PM by CaptainCapsase
Not in the statement you didn't. Your later backtracking just sounds like when my grandma tried to exclude my brother's girlfriend from her bigoted statements about immigrants.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran@ILoveDogs: There isn't one.
I'm distinguishing between something being right, and something being necessary. I will support actions in the latter category, but I won't claim a moral high-ground.
edited 5th Jun '16 5:39:05 PM by CaptainCapsase
Obama is responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths. I don't think that's something that can ever be called just or right. Perhaps its necessary, but I cannot in good conscious claim it's a good thing that thousands of lives have been ended. Beyond a certain scale, it's effectively impossible for any decision to be made without harming anyone.
When you're at that level, people die no matter what you do. All you can do is to try your best. That doesn't mean you're a bad person.
Is any surgeon who has ever had a single patient die a bad person?
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
The difference here is that the deaths of thousands was the desired outcome of the decision maker. Moreover, in the case of the surgeon, the patient is capable of consenting to the risk of the operation; even the most pluralistic form of democracy possible in the modern world cannot say the same.
edited 5th Jun '16 5:46:38 PM by CaptainCapsase
Honestly, I think Obama tried his best, given the circumstances. He dodged a bullet in Syria and the whole Libya affair could have been a lot, a lot more worse than it ended up being.
Plus, he started pulling troops out of Iraq, so there's that.
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.In reality, the option is sometimes "bad" or "worse". Choosing "bad" doesn't make you a bad person, it means you wanted the better option that hurts less. It's in fact the thing making you the better person.
Not everything is good in reality. Thus, what you're asking for is outright impossible at this point and time. Maybe a very long time from now, pretty much after everyone on this forum has passed on with their lives(that's how long we're talking), peace and no suffering could be achievable. But human nature is far more fickle than that.
Regardless, your stance is completely unfeasible. It's a case where you should just let it go and move on.
Shadow?Well, I'm not a huge fan of Obama by any means (we have our many disagreements, I'm a lot more right leaning than him), but keep in mind that good politicians can and do save lives.
Leviticus 19:34
Not being a good person doesn't by default make you a bad person. That's my position. For all practical purposes my stance is similar to yours, the difference being that I disagree with the notion that there is such thing as a moral high ground on a sufficiently large scale, just a battle of mutually exclusive agendas, which will be harmful to different groups of people if realized.
edited 5th Jun '16 6:13:57 PM by CaptainCapsase
David French: ‘I’m not running for president’.
And the search continues!
Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.Yeah I think I'm done engaging in discussion about how all of X group are terrible people regardless of if they do the best they can in the situations they find themselves in. Such discussions are in no way constructive and stink of flame bait and trolling.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
That's out of the Republican Party Handbook? I've listened to self-identified Tea Partiers who wouldn't call him a mass murderer.

Capsase, do you actually knew any politicians personally? Do you know anyone who knows any?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran