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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124601: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:42:11 PM

And in the case of the second article, some are threatening to vote Trump, or stay home. Because if they make things lousy enough they'll get their precious revolution.

Interesting look at what happened the last time an outsider took over a party: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/history-campaign-politics-zachary-taylor-killed-whigs-political-party-213935 Here's hoping something similar happens to the GOP.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#124602: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:43:21 PM

Hillary is supporting a $15 minimum wage. And yes, she should support some other policies, like making healthcare more accessible, but those same people said they were in support of Bernie Or Bust if they don't get their way. And at that point, they're endangering thousands of people just because they didn't get what they want.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#124603: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:44:47 PM

Hillary was persuaded to back that minimum wage during the Brooklyn debate. So yeah, she is supporting it.

I am not certain if having it as a blanket rule is good policy, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124604: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:44:58 PM

[up][up] Ultimately, unless the democrats legitimately fear their voters will abandon them, there's no incentive for them to try and enact any major reforms; it took the very real fears that there would be a communist revolution to force the enactment of the New Deal during the Depression. The degree of leftist militancy that Bernie Or Bust represents isn't even close to what was going on back then.

[up] Ideally, minimum wages would be set by the central government on a provincial basis depending on the local economic situation, but since America isn't a unitary state, that's not something that can be done. The minimum wage should actually be more like $12.50, but if it's not $15.00, a lot of places where it should be $15.00 will flat out refuse to raise it that high.

edited 4th Jun '16 3:50:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#124605: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:45:47 PM

Way too controversial and prone to abuse and cronyism.
That's the whole point of the Dem Superdelegates. Abuse and cronyism

It's so if there is a roughly similar deadlock/head-to-head between the party favorite and a dark horse reformist, the party can make sure the reformist doesn't get in.

The Superdelegates were put in place so when they changed to popular voting instead of backroom dealing, the Democratic elties could still effectively backroom deal.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#124606: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:46:02 PM

If people really hate Hillary so much, maybe they should do what my mother and I did during Dubbya's administration, and what some others did during Obama's administration:

  1. Vote for her, as the lesser of two evils.
  2. Grit your teeth while she serves two terms.
  3. Take comfort in the fact that, thanks to the 22nd Amendment, she could never again be elected to the Presidency (and probably wouldn't be elected to any other political office, either. Ex-Presidents are funny that way...)

edited 4th Jun '16 3:48:04 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#124607: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:50:35 PM

I mean if they really hated Hillary they would vote against her but seeing as how she's got the popular vote and the delegate count and the supers it just seems like the anti-hillary vote has a hard time getting out.

I'm still secretly hoping that the establishment republicans will decide to run an independent so the circus can truly be a three ring affair.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124608: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:52:27 PM

[up]Even if they don't the Libertarians are polling well enough to potentially throw a monkey wrench into things. I'm honestly not sure what's funnier—that they're polling well at all, or that Johnson and Weld sound so much saner than Trump.

edited 4th Jun '16 3:55:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124609: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:56:28 PM

[up][up] Sanders got a sizable fraction of the vote, it's not like it was a 95%-5% curbstomp, which is what's supposed to happen when one candidate gets all of the insider support. Now, most of his voters will, when it comes down to it, vote for Clinton, in the same way most of Clinton's voters ultimately voted for Obama in 2008, despite exit polls from Mid-May which asked showing as many as 50% of her voters felt they couldn't support Obama even if he got the nomination. Which incidentally is quite a bit worse than the 30% of Sanders' supporters who said they wouldn't vote for Clinton.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:00:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#124610: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:58:30 PM

[up][up] Aren't the Libertarians drawing an equal number of Republicans and Democrats this round? Seems more that a minority of people are siding with the Libertarian Party because they hate both Clinton and Trump as choices.

edited 4th Jun '16 3:59:36 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#124611: Jun 4th 2016 at 3:59:27 PM

[up][up]How well are they polling? Any numbers?

@smokeycut: On health care while she hasn't come out for single payer she does support a public option.

Trump delenda est
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#124612: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:00:24 PM

He still soundly lost even ignoring some questionable things during the primary. At this point his stubbornness is only increasing the chances of a Trump presidency. If he was truly a progressive champion of the people he'd realize that dropping out and throwing his full weight behind Hillary is the only way any of his agenda will get done.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124613: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:01:06 PM

[up][up] She supported a public option a long time ago. Right now, IIRC, her position is just "improve on Obamacare", with no specifics, which leads me to believe that's not actually a priority of hers.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:01:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124614: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:04:20 PM

Given that Sanders' single-payer system would require overhauling Obama Care which is already in place and already helping people, Clinton not wanting to dismantle it is pretty reasonable. You don't throw millions of people under the bus in the hopes you can help a few more in the future.

RE: Libertarian polling

One poll had them at ten percent. How accurate it is, I don't know.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124615: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:09:10 PM

[up] It's not like Obamacare would be automatically repealed if Sanders' single-payer plan failed to pass, and while there would probably be some initial administrative difficulties if it did (much like Obamacare itself did), in the long run it'd be much better for the American people; gradually building upon Obamacare is the backup plan, and saying Clinton is right to be ruling out supporting singlepayer healthcare is a needlessly defeatist attitude.

@Kostya: Not really, if history is anything to go by, while people might say they aren't voting/are voting for the opposition if their candidate doesn't win the primaries, in the end the vast, vast majority of voters will vote for their party's candidate in the general election when it comes down to it. That's something that's been fairly consistent throughout the modern history of primaries.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:22:15 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#124616: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:22:14 PM

Single payer is still politically untenable, even if the democrats somehow took both houses. Too many entrenched interests are ready to work against it at every turn. I mean, considering how teeth pulling was required just to pass the ACA, I can't imagine Sanders even getting a third of the stuff he wants.

That being said I do agree that Clinton's dismissal of single-payer was a needlessly cynical move, but that's more hindsight talking.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:23:17 PM by Mio

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124617: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:24:07 PM

[up] Not if the next President gets 5 supreme court justices, which is something that's well within the realm of possibility, or if a mass movement actually materialized and elected a bunch of progressives to congress. Barring either of those, the democrats will be struggling to prevent Obamacare for being gradually picked apart like other welfare programs typically are.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:27:13 PM by CaptainCapsase

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#124618: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:26:16 PM

Personally at the very least I'd like to see the wage gap plugged. Most states that opted out of the expansion also made major cuts to their medicaid to the extent that you'd be lucky to see a dime from it even if you're homeless.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#124619: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:26:22 PM

There is more to getting this stuff done than the Supreme Court. Sanders big problem is probably that he's a decade or two early to realistically aacomplish half of what he wants.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124620: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:32:23 PM

[up] A president who appoints that many justices has way more power than the executive branch was ever intended to have, and can threaten to have pretty much any legislation struck down to force congress into complying with their agenda. Barring a mass movement, in the current political climate, that's the only way anything significant could be passed.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:34:37 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#124621: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:34:41 PM

Making things legal doesn't mean he can actually implement them. Sanders is going to piss a lot of people off. Why would anyone want to work with him?

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#124622: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:36:23 PM

To be fair most people who would not want to work with Sanders probably would not want to work with Hillary either.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#124623: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:38:54 PM

At least Hillary would have the support of the Democratic establishment. Sanders would probably piss off both sides. He can dream and try to make big changes all he wants but he still has to govern. That requires making compromises and alliances.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124624: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:52:19 PM

[up] The GOP is a much bigger obstacle than the democrats ever could be; literally no progressive reforms are going to be enacted so long as they retain enough of congress to continue blocking it, and the GOP has no intention of making any compromise that isn't entirely their way.

edited 4th Jun '16 4:53:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124625: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:11:19 PM

Sanders would only make the situation worse. He's as much of a no-compromise type as the GOP which is why he's gotten a grand total of three pieces of legislation passed in a career that's lasted 25 years—two of them to rename post offices. Clinton would at least try to work with Congress, while Sanders is liable to degenerate into shouting matches with them. And while the end result might be the same, only the latter makes the President and the Democrats look as bad as the GOP.


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