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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124326: Jun 1st 2016 at 2:53:34 PM

[up][up][up] For once, you and I we in agreement; there's nothing to be gained from further involving ourselves in Syria from either a humanitarian or a pragmatic perception. Let Russia and China bog themselves down for decades trying to get at the oil.

[up] If you're a history major, than you know historically air power alone has never been of significant use in the strategic theater beyond a stalling tactic; bombing ISIS causes them to spread out their forces, but without ground forces, we acomplish little other than delaying ISIS, and taking out a few enforcers before driving them underground. Unless the Iraqi army pulls itself together, Obama's air campaign is not going to matter in the long term unless either regional powers or international powers move in and do the ground fighting.

We can't go into Syria without intending to topple Al-Assad, and we can't move against Al-Assad without initiating a proxy war against Russia and possibly also China if they opt to try and maintain the balance of power.

Also, for what it's worth, sorry for my presumptions about your education. The history professors I've had were just about the most ardent political realists around, so perhaps that's tainted my perception.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:09:42 PM by CaptainCapsase

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#124327: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:24:50 PM

I think democracy accommodates war just fine, it's modern sensibilities that have changed. Nowadays most everyone will live to their late 60s at least, and any death before that is more likely than not to be due to dangerous activity. In earlier years a quick death for some was just accepted, and war was as good a way to go as any.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124328: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:31:49 PM

[up] Modern democracies simply don't have the stomach for a long war that isn't clearly defensive; it's too easy of an angle for opposition to latch onto, since nobody outside of defense executives are happy about being at war.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#124329: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:32:41 PM

Don't we have a foreign policy thread?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124330: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:33:43 PM

Oh god are we on the bullshit of "I'd rather not try and help brown people who are asking for our help putting our a fire we starte, because if we screw up helping I'll feel guilty about it and I care more about my own guilt then the lives of brown people" again?

As someone who has studied this crap extensively I'm calling bullshit.

Bullshit on the idea that the US's air campaign has done more harm then good (it would do more good if combined with ground troops and a proper long term stabilisation program, but we work with what we've got), bullshit on the idea that we made Libya worse by going in (if we'd stuck around we'd have done more good, but the place is still better then it would have been), bullshit on the idea that the US can't get involved in Syria on the ground (ignoring the fact that we could go Bosnia style and work out a deal with the Russians, the US could always ramp up its support for the Kurds), bullshit on the suggestion that US interventions are always wrong and bad (ask the people of Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya, Kuwait and several other places how they feel, because in the end it's the opinions of the people in places that matter).

And most of all bullshit on the idea that the US somehow can't change and can never do good, you're better then that, history shows that, pick yourself up and do better this time, don't use past mistakes as an excuse to not even try now.

If folks want to feel guilty about the US's past misdeeds then channel that guilt into cleaning up the mess, not abandoning people who want your help because it's more important to feel morally superior then it is to actually help people.

They want our help, and after everything we've done I'd say we dam well owe it to them.

[up] We have an Arab Spring thread.

Edit: Oh and bullshit on the idea that the US can't do long term state building, you're still in Bosnia and Kosovo, hell you might even still have some troops in East Timor (I'm not sure, that mission got ended and restarted at least once, plus it was Australian lead). You can't do it fine as long as nobody fucks everything up at the starts and makes things worse.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:37:33 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124331: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:37:43 PM

"Take up the White Man's burden, Send forth the best ye breed Go bind your sons to exile, to serve your captives' need; To wait in heavy harness, On fluttered folk and wild— Your new-caught, sullen peoples, Half-devil and half-child."

No matter the era, Imperialism is Imperialism.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:38:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#124332: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:38:35 PM

[up][up] I honestly fail to see how Libya can be any worse than the shithole it already is.

[nja]

edited 1st Jun '16 3:39:14 PM by SciFiSlasher

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#124333: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:39:33 PM

[up][up] You are literally an inch away from invoking Goodwins law.sad

[up] It could be Syriasad

edited 1st Jun '16 3:39:51 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124334: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:40:55 PM

[up]X3 You're the one saying we should ignore what the local people want, not me. The White Man's Burden is about imposing oneself on 'savages' to 'help' then against their will. What I'm taking about is respecting someone enough to help them when they ask for your help.

If you can't tell the difference between barging into someone's house to 'help' them against their will and coming when they ring and ask for help, well that's on you.

[up][up] It could be Syria. [nja]

edited 1st Jun '16 3:42:04 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124335: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:41:12 PM

[up][up] Not really, "white man's burden" is more associated with 19th century imperialism. Which never really ended.

[up] Look ma, they really like us!

edited 1st Jun '16 3:42:46 PM by CaptainCapsase

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#124336: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:42:54 PM

[up] It's basically the same thing. Using an appeal to an appealing historical period to shut down all argument.

Edit: Dude you are really acting like a condescending asshole right now. Also Silas is British so he isn't part of the "us" you mentioned.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:43:44 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124337: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:45:08 PM

[up] I'm not the one proposing we go butcher another million people for oil.

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#124338: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:45:23 PM

It is very difficult to build a democratic or a representative state in a country with little tradition of political liberty in the way we understand it. Such states also lack the necessary virtue or the unity of the polity to practice a system of government similar to a representative one.

And of course one must consider the lack of strength and popular support of pro-representative parties in such states. The creation and enforcement of such organs and institutions by foreign states is in most cases not received with widespread support.

After all as Robespierre noted, "The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."

edited 1st Jun '16 3:46:49 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#124339: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:45:46 PM

[up][up] Neither is Silas. Quit strawmaning.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:46:13 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#124340: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:45:48 PM

So what, Capsase? We're supposed to remain in isolation? Let the Russians have it all?

edited 1st Jun '16 3:46:10 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124341: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:45:52 PM

If you're going to call everything imperialism what's the point of the discussion?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124342: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:46:29 PM

[up][up][up] As if. Look at where confrontations between the United States and Russia and China are happening. It's not off the coast of Cuba, it's not in Hawaii, it's off the coast of China and on Russia's borders. The sheer disparity in power is utterly overwhelming.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:47:33 PM by CaptainCapsase

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#124343: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:46:59 PM

[up][up][up] Hell has officially frozen over, Garcon is making an argument that could vaguely be construed as "hawkish"

[up] You have officially lapsed into self parody.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:48:11 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124344: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:47:23 PM

survey of people in 65 countries.

Thouse 65 countries don't get to decide forign policy for the entire world. Thouse countries are welcome to refuse any US aid or assistance, what they don't get to do is demand that others also refuse US help.

If you've got a poll saying that the Kurdish people of Syria and Iraq would rather the US fuck off I'm all ears, but considering that the British anti-intervention groups couldn't find a single Kurd to speak at their rally due to all the Kurds being pro-intervention I find it unlikely that you will.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:48:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#124345: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:47:41 PM

Actually, according to Dante Hell is a pretty cold place in the center. Just throwing that out there.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:47:54 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124346: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:49:20 PM

Admit that you're Imperialists than; be honest about the fact; if there's one thing to somewhat respect about Donald Trump, it's that he's not trying to hide his foreign policy agenda behind false humanitarian pretenses.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:51:24 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124347: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:50:50 PM

The fact that you belive that all humanitarian ideas are false pretences rather then honest concern for the wellbeing of fellow humans says a lot more about you then it does the world.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#124348: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:51:42 PM

If America's to be considered an empire, it's a pretty oddly benign type of empire.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:51:57 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124349: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:51:43 PM

[up][up] Humanitarianism is inherently incompatible with militarism, in my view.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:51:48 PM by CaptainCapsase

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#124350: Jun 1st 2016 at 3:51:47 PM

[up] Citizen, there is no need for that tone or accusation. Others are simply giving their opinion and sharing their thoughts. Imperialism is a term too lightly thrown around and it does a great disservice to the concept when you generalize in such a way to say that all foreign ventures are imperialistic.

edited 1st Jun '16 3:53:13 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

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