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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#124151: May 31st 2016 at 9:15:35 AM

I don't know whether "the majority of the governments" can be equated with "sound assessment of the evidence" in this case; seems like most of these opinions are held for diplomatic reasons rather than evidentiary reasons.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#124152: May 31st 2016 at 9:15:45 AM

I cannot wait for the "make X great again" meme to die.

Tough luck, it's here to stay. Too much Applicability.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124153: May 31st 2016 at 9:17:49 AM

Denial is a position of many governments sure, but it's the same way not acknowledging Taiwan as a country is, governments do it because the political reality of the international situations is that way, that excuse doesn't work for private citizens.

Unless you've got a historical source saying that it's not genocide then there's no excuse, governments being genocide deniers doesn't make it okay, especially for people who don't have the excuses that governments do.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124154: May 31st 2016 at 9:19:18 AM

[up][up][up] It's quite obviously political, yes, but as unpleasant as it is, it makes denial of the genocide the mainstream position rather than the fringe position as is the case with holocaust denial.

[up] I'm not saying its okay, I'm saying it's simply not on the same level as holocaust denial; government policy on these matters sets examples for the general populace, and while I imagine most of us here agree the policy is wrong, it's not difficult to see why people would tend to drift towards the majority position in that regards.

Beyond that, while I'm not familiar with the specifics of this particular case being discussed, denial of the Armenian genocide has typically been a denial that the mass killings of Armenians was orchestrated by the Turkish government to the extent that it would qualify as genocide as it is defined under international laws, as opposed to a denial that Armenians were killed in mass, and for a long time there was lively debate in academic circles in that regard. Relatively recently (2000s), historians reached a general consensus that yes, based on the evidence available to us now, the killings do qualify as genocide, but most of the worlds' governments have not caught up with that.

edited 31st May '16 9:27:04 AM by CaptainCapsase

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#124155: May 31st 2016 at 9:23:20 AM

North Korea supports Donald Trump. Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!

edited 31st May '16 9:23:39 AM by speedyboris

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#124156: May 31st 2016 at 9:27:34 AM

Never let it be said that evil isn't a big, happy family.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124157: May 31st 2016 at 9:36:44 AM

Anyway, is there anything people would care to talk about that doesn't involve the 2016 primaries? The conversation keeps going to the exact same place.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124158: May 31st 2016 at 9:40:21 AM

[up]X4 Governments doing it doesn't make it a mainstream position, not unless you're a national government. The mainstream position is that taken by historians. Otherwise, again, Taiwan wouldn't be a country, which it however is, regardless of what national governments say for political reasons.

edited 31st May '16 9:40:34 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124159: May 31st 2016 at 9:48:11 AM

[up] Officially, Taiwan isn't a country (dependent of course on where you live), and I while I'd think them a bit dull for parroting the official position of their government, I wouldn't resent someone all that much for buying that. Regarding academic consensus, in the long term, that's generally true, but it takes time for that to filter down to the greater population. Chastise people for being ignorant, try to convince them of their folly, sure, but don't hate them for being a product of a different time or a different society; all of us undoubtedly hold attitudes and views that will, in the future, be considered backwards, perhaps even barbaric, and many of us can see livings examples of that in our parents and older relatives.

edited 31st May '16 9:59:44 AM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124160: May 31st 2016 at 10:02:26 AM

If someone was unknown to the area, politics and history sure, but Cenk isn't, he's named his shower after the people who carried out the genocide, so it's not some laymen who's a bit out touch doing this, it's the same as a neo-nazi denning the holocaust or an ardent communist nationalist denning that Taiwan counts as a country.

Cenk lost the benefit of the doubt when he named his show "the young Turks".

Oh and Taiwan isn't not a country depending on where you are, it's depending on how you define a country, there's no one definition of what is or isn't a country, even national recognition, UN membership or diplomatic relations don't always count.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124161: May 31st 2016 at 10:04:54 AM

RE: Captain Caspase, Cenk Ugyur, genocide denial

A majority of governments deny the Armenian genocide because Turkey threatened to pull out of its alliance with NATO during the Cold War if the Americans—or anybody else in NATO—acknowledged the genocide had taken place. It's a position that was maintained not because of any evidence, but to keep Turkey as a functional ally against the Soviet Union, and that has sadly outlived the point when there was any justification for it. For you to use that diplomatic reality to defend Cenk is...unusual given your usual positions in this thread.

But hey, you want to play this game? The UN recognizes it as a genocide. The European Parliament recognizes it as a genocide. The Papacy recognizes it as a genocide. The Presbyterian Church recognizes it as a genocide. Various Jewish human rights organizations recognize it as a genocide. So did Hitler, who viewed it as inspiration for his own future acts—"who, after all, remembers the Armenians?" Perhaps most importantly, the Ottoman Empire itself recognized it as a crime and court-martialed the people who did it shortly before its own abolition.

29 countries have adopted resolutions saying the genocide happened. That number is growing. Your position that genocide denial is the standard position worldwide is also pretty disingenuous, because it's not as if a majority of countries deny the genocide occurred, they simply haven't passed legislation to say that it has. Talk to any educated person within those countries, and most will recognize it as a genocide. As proof of that, consider the fact that while the UK does not officially recognize it, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland all do. So do two Australian states and several Australian cities. So do five Spanish provinces and sixteen Spanish cities. And so do 44 American states, which means that acknowledgement of the genocide is, in point of fact, a majority opinion within the United States. You know, that place where Cenk lives and denies the genocide? A large number of other cities, counties, provinces, and regional jurisdictions around the world recognize the genocide. And that's just official recognition. We're not talking about countries were political leaders have said the genocide has happened but where no official legislation exists (Iran is a country where this is the case, to pick just one example).

Finally of course, the vast majority (as in 90+ percent) of genocide scholars, Middle Eastern historians, etc, acknowledge there was a genocide. Most of those who do deny it are from Turkey or have close connections in Turkey, and even there, acknowledgement of the genocide is growing. Turkey's Human Rights Association recognizes the genocide. An increasingly large number of Turkish scholars recognize the genocide. Istanbul, Ankara, Diyarbakir, Izmir, Malatya, and Mersin all hold commemoration ceremonies for the victims of the genocide.


Of course all of the above and this entire conversation, in point of fact, is irrelevant to my original point, because at no time prior to this post did I suggest that genocide acknowledgement is the majority position. I said that a supposedly progressive organization that calls itself the Young Turks and is headed up by an Armenian genocide denier is analogous to a group calling itself the National Socialists and being headed up by a Holocaust denier. Because it is. Genocide denial not being a fringe position has exactly nothing to do with my previous statements, and Captain Caspase's attempt to lead the conversation in that direction is frankly baffling to me, since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Cenk Ugyur is a man who claims to be a rationalist. Who claims to be a progressive. Who claims in point of fact, to be more-progressive-than-thou and the one true voice of the leftist movement. Who criticizes everyone else for ideological impurity or holding positions he thinks are not progressive enough. Yet he heads up a group that takes its name from a protofascist regime, and is himself a denier of that regime's worst crime. Whether that position is a fringe one or not makes absolutely no difference to my criticism of him. In denying the genocide Cenk is embracing a Turkish nationalist position, despite his supposed hatred of nationalism. In naming his group the Young Turks he embraces a fascistic military regime, despite his supposed opposition to those kinds of governments. In doing both he downplays the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people, and proves that all his claims to being progressive are BS.

That's my position on Cenk Ugyur and TYT. It has nothing to do with the position of a majority of governments. It has to do with a man claiming to be more progressive and enlightened than everyone else, but engaging in genocide denial. It has to do with that same man naming his supposedly progressive organization after a protofascist military clique. It has to do with that man talking about "fighting the establishment" in the USA while defending the far worse establishment of another country. Again, not sure where you were trying to take this.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124162: May 31st 2016 at 10:09:05 AM

[up] I agree with everything you're saying, more or less. He's a blatant hypocrite even beyond the genocide denial in several respects. Now regarding the name, to be fair, the historical TYT started out as a distinctly liberal movement to replace the Ottoman Empire's Islamic absolute monarchy with a secular Republic, a goal which was, on its own, reasonable, even noble. The ultra-nationalism is something that crept into the group over time, which eventually triggered a split into the Committee of Union and Progress party and the Freedom and Accord party after the initial 1909 revolution, the latter of which ultimately lost the power struggle for control of the Turkish state, and it was under the CUP leadership that the genocide was carried out, after having purged the FA and seized power.

While the name "Young Turks" tends to be associated with the genocide, the persecution of Armenians is something that began after the Young Turk movement splintered into several subgroups; only one of which could be described as fascist, and which is unfortunately the group that ended up taking power.

edited 31st May '16 10:21:35 AM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124163: May 31st 2016 at 10:23:07 AM

[up]To call the original Young Turk movement distinctly liberal is questionable. The CUP was quite badly divided between liberal democratic and militaristic wings from early on, and their ideas about what they were going to replace Abdul-Hamid II with were always rather vague. It's not very surprising that the movement ended up going in the direction it did, because instability within the CUP, coupled with the country's increasingly deteriorating position, made it altogether too easy for Enver, Cemal, and Talaat to maneuver themselves into positions of power.

Moreover, I think that when it comes to the name, what the Young Turks ended up doing matters more than what they originally stood for. That there were liberal democrats within the CUP doesn't matter when it's the militarists like Enver who wound up in charge, anymore than the presence of Ernst Rohm and other surprisingly left-wing figures in the Nazi Party matters given who ended up running the show in the end.

It's a bad name, and Cenk had to know the connotations going in. To think that he can wish away the associations between TYT name and genocide is at best pretty damn entitled of him.

edited 31st May '16 10:24:52 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124164: May 31st 2016 at 10:33:04 AM

[up] I agree with you regarding Cenk being an insensitive ass in choosing the name that he did given the association, but I'd still argue the the specific association of the Young Turks with the genocide in the same way we associate the Holocaust with the Nazi party is a bit unfair; it's not just that there were liberal democrats within the CUP, it's that the movement fractured into multiple political parties both of which could legitimately claim to be the "true" Young Turks well before the genocide began, and it's just as reasonable to argue that the Young Turks movement ended with the breakup of the initial CUP along ideological lines. You could liken it to the Nazi state styling itself as the "third reich", the second one being Imperial Germany, and the first being the Holy Roman Empire, just on a shorter time span.

edited 31st May '16 10:38:01 AM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124165: May 31st 2016 at 10:46:13 AM

[up]Like it or not, Enver, Cemal, and Talaat are the best known iteration of the CUP, and for good reason. The name is indelibly associated with them.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#124168: May 31st 2016 at 12:24:46 PM

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/05/hillary-clinton-candidacy.html

This is easily, easily one of the best articles I've read this election cycle. Fantastic prose, excellent commentary, and gets to the heart of one of the most polarizing figures in politics

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124169: May 31st 2016 at 12:50:53 PM

[up] tl;dr: Hillary Clinton is a human being. So is Donald Trump, so is Ted Cruz, so is every other politician.

edited 31st May '16 12:55:22 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124171: May 31st 2016 at 12:57:07 PM

[up][up]Your point being what exactly? Because if you're trying to compare Clinton to Trump or Cruz on anything other than the "are all human beings" front that's a denial of reality. I'm confused.

edited 31st May '16 12:57:26 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124172: May 31st 2016 at 12:59:31 PM

[up] I'm just saying that you could make a more or less identical piece about any politician; behind all the lies, they're all still people, but that doesn't make it any less of an attempt to manipulate readers than all political pieces like this are. The same was true of pointless pictures showing Sanders walking to work, as if most politicians outside of the party brass took limos.

edited 31st May '16 3:07:46 PM by CaptainCapsase

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#124173: May 31st 2016 at 1:01:18 PM

It's less of that, I think, and more of explaining why Clinton has the image that she does.

This article got me thinking about how we might put too much emphasis on charisma when it comes to politicians. After all, Jefferson wasn't a good speechmaker, was he?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#124174: May 31st 2016 at 1:02:37 PM

What kind of manipulation? Cruz is a Christian Taliban, Trump is a mixture of incompetence with distillates of all forms of bigotry out there, and Hillary is Mrs. Fake Scandals. Not sure what is being manipulative about this article.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124175: May 31st 2016 at 1:04:31 PM

[up] It's the same logic as "I'm voting for Bush because he's somebody I could see myself having a beer with."

It's an appeal to a candidates personality (in his case an attempt to make Clinton seem endearing) over their platform, and just as importantly, their past. The unfortunate thing is this sort of strategy works; personality can and often does trump policy. Hopefully that pun doesn't become Harsher in Hindsight.

edited 31st May '16 1:10:26 PM by CaptainCapsase


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