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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#124126: May 31st 2016 at 6:46:48 AM

[up] I like that article. But good luck finding anyone on the right who's willing to engage in Niebuhrian relativism when there's a black Democrat in the White House.

Speaking of the gender wage gap (we weren't?), here's a very interesting interview with a person who's done a lot of research into that field.

To summarize the article, the gender gap in pay has been closing for a while, but investigation has found a few factors that correlate to a very high degree with how likely it is to show up:

[T]he biggest gaps are in occupations in the corporate and finance field, in law, and in health occupations that have high amounts of self-employment. And the smallest gaps are found in occupations in technology, in science, and in lots of the health occupations where there is a very low level of self-employment.

The key factors seem to be child rearing and substitutability.

  • Child-rearing seems to reduce women's willingness to work long, unpredictable hours, like those found in many of the professions mentioned above, more than it does men. So it's not that they're being paid less overtly, but that they are voluntarily reducing their workloads when they have one of those high-stress occupations.
  • When workers are substitutable — that is, there is little difference to the client or the consumer which pharmacist they talk to, or which sales representative they engage with, or which worker makes their cars — the pay gap is much smaller. However, in self-employment, executive positions, legal work, and the like, the demand that "John, the guy who's been on this project 80 hours a week for the last year, is the one to handle this," tends to shut out people who seek less stressful work environments, and that tends to leave out more women than men.

A part of this seems to be big organizations being unwilling, at the middle management level, to adopt policies that reduce those 80 hour work weeks and tell clients that no, they cannot have access to their representative at 11 PM, because he's got a family.

edited 31st May '16 6:47:57 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124127: May 31st 2016 at 6:47:27 AM

@Silasw: The big problem is that, in order for that kind of system to work, you need to break down the two-party system, otherwise it'll just lead to voter suppression and similar abuse; political parties in the United States are essentially apparatuses of the state, in a similar manner as you see in One Party States like China. The difference (which is pretty big) is that there's two parties, and while under normal circumstances they aren't particularly different from one another ideologically (our government can't function with polarized parties), they can and do have different positions. Those differences are quite radical right now, which is the main reason why it's almost completely impossible for anything to get done in government that involves congress.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#124128: May 31st 2016 at 6:59:53 AM

[up][up] There's probably also the bit about the States being the only country without state-enforced paid leave. I don't even know whether it has maternity leave.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#124129: May 31st 2016 at 7:18:12 AM

[up]According to John Oliver, the situation is dire.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#124130: May 31st 2016 at 7:26:44 AM

In the US the law simply prevents them from firing you for taking unpaid family leave, a Clinton law from the 90s.

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#124131: May 31st 2016 at 7:31:39 AM

Hydra is recruiting Trumpists...

Donald Trump / Steve Rogers 2016

California Governor Jerry Brown (D) has endorsed Hillary Clinton.

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#124132: May 31st 2016 at 7:33:41 AM

Surprisingly, analysis of nations with excellent paid family leave showed little effect on the wage gap. Regardless of maternity policies, women in high-hour, low-substitutability jobs see a drastic drop in pay once their children are two years old.

It boils down to this: when you've got children, you're less willing to work 80 hour weeks and take calls at 11 PM. You have to pick your kid up from school and get them to activities. You have to be available when their care provider tells you they threw up all over themselves.

edited 31st May '16 7:35:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#124133: May 31st 2016 at 7:34:55 AM

Except Red Skull is a lot more eloquent than Trump.

Trump delenda est
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#124134: May 31st 2016 at 7:37:13 AM

Trump is eloquent alright, he simply talks like a sixth grader because it has a great effect in reaching out to the most people.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#124135: May 31st 2016 at 7:42:37 AM

“I take away the compelling idea that there’s serious evil in the world, and hardship and pain. And we should be humble and modest in our belief we can eliminate those things. But we shouldn’t use that as an excuse for cynicism and inaction. I take away . . . the sense we have to make these efforts knowing they are hard, and not swinging from naive idealism to bitter realism.”
[awesome]

I'd honestly never heard of Niebuhr before, but this quote encapsulates pretty well what I like about Obama. I dislike both the extremes of jaded cynicism ("it'll never work, so you're stupid for even trying") and self-righteous moralism ("you made a decision motivated by practical concerns as much as ideological purity! YOU HAVE BETRAYED THE CAUSE!"). You have to accept that we don't live in a perfect world and act based on the political reality of the situation while still trying to stay true to your ideals. If you lose sight of reality, then you become a self-righteous ascetic passing down judgement on the unenlightened masses from atop your ivory tower. If you lose sight of your ideals, then you become the sort of person willing to lie in defense of truth and kill in the name of nonviolence. You have to find a balance in between the two — which is simple to say, but staggeringly difficult to do. Obama has, for the most part, managed to do it, which is nothing short of remarkable.

So it's not that they're being paid less overtly, but that they are voluntarily reducing their workloads when they have one of those high-stress occupations.
This is why the "equal pay for equal work" thing annoys the hell out of me. Generally speaking, people largely do get equal pay for equal work — the thing is that women are hugely underrepresented in the most lucrative kinds of work. The pay gap is a real thing, but unless you understand the nature of it, you'll never be able to close it.

A part of this seems to be big organizations being unwilling, at the middle management level, to adopt policies that reduce those 80 hour work weeks and tell clients that no, they cannot have access to their representative at 11 PM, because he's got a family.
Which is one of those unfortunate chicken/egg things. It's expected of people because people are willing to do it, and people are willing to do it because it's expected of them. The only way to fix the problem is to enforce it at a corporate level — the company has to say "go home after your 8 hours, no exceptions", not just "you can go home after 8 hours without it reflecting poorly on you", because there will always be someone willing to put in 10 or 12 hours, and they're going to be the ones getting the raises and the promotions because they're providing the most benefit for the company. So you have to stop it at the company level, and enough companies have to stop it to make it an industry norm — which is an uphill battle.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#124136: May 31st 2016 at 7:55:03 AM

A bit more on Jerry Brown's endorsement of Clinton: Text of the latter. These are very cogent points.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#124137: May 31st 2016 at 8:03:45 AM

Make Captain America great again.

Non Indicative Username
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124138: May 31st 2016 at 8:11:42 AM

@Captain Capsase You're getting cause and effect the wrong way round. This is the way you break down the two party system, because if you make political parties private organisations that charge membership fees then you're going to get multiple parties emerging, you're also going to break the stronghold that big donners have on political parties.

[up] I cannot wait for the "make X great again" meme to die.

edited 31st May '16 8:13:51 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124139: May 31st 2016 at 8:17:01 AM

[up] If you got rid of the public funding and state support for the parties, than yeah, that would work, but the major parties in the US as so deeply intertwined with the state that it would be extremely difficult to pull that off politically.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#124140: May 31st 2016 at 8:20:23 AM

Which is one of those unfortunate chicken/egg things. It's expected of people because people are willing to do it, and people are willing to do it because it's expected of them. The only way to fix the problem is to enforce it at a corporate level — the company has to say "go home after your 8 hours, no exceptions", not just "you can go home after 8 hours without it reflecting poorly on you", because there will always be someone willing to put in 10 or 12 hours, and they're going to be the ones getting the raises and the promotions because they're providing the most benefit for the company. So you have to stop it at the company level, and enough companies have to stop it to make it an industry norm — which is an uphill battle.

And then there are workers who are against work hours reduction because they depend of those hours to get the extra income they want or need, but they seem to be a minority.

Inter arma enim silent leges
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124141: May 31st 2016 at 8:41:24 AM

I'd missed this. And of course a look through the comments shows one moron after another who are only bent on making things worse. Now, I know people will insist it's not something Sanders himself did, but given that he picked Dawson to introduce him at a rally after she did this, it's pretty hard to distance him from her comments.

And then there's this as well. I'm getting rather weary of seeing Sanders supporters or surrogates dismiss the notion that any of their fellows could have done anything wrong. I saw Jeff Weaver on TV a week back insisting Barbara Boxer was lying about feeling threatened in Nevada because he's apparently a mind reader now. This article is from several months back, but it's effectively the same thing.

edited 31st May '16 8:46:20 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124142: May 31st 2016 at 8:48:39 AM

Yeah while Sanders himself might not be an asshole he seems to ally himself with a fair number of holy then though shitcakes, even just the news organisations he favours is weird, I doubt Sanders would stand for others appearing on a show run by genocide deniers.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124143: May 31st 2016 at 8:53:05 AM

[up] If you're talking about TYT, well Cenk rescinded his denial of the Armenian genocide, for what it's worth.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124144: May 31st 2016 at 8:54:52 AM

[up][up]If Cenk and his buddies were backing Clinton, there'd be a wave of outrage from Sanders and his allies, of that I have no doubt. Of course, I also have no doubt that if a denier of any other Holocaust was to back Clinton, Cenk himself would react with outrage because the man has never had an issue with hypocrisy.

I think at a certain point too Sanders has to be held responsible for what some of his more dickish allies have said. Sure, you might be able to say that the actions of the "Bernie Bros", et al, aren't on him, but the stuff that Dawson said about Huerta? The many increasingly nasty things Jeff Weaver has said? These are people who have been part of his campaign in an official capacity.

[up]No he didn't. I've read the article in which he supposedly rescinds his denial. At no point does he say "this happened." Instead he says, "I'm not a historian so I shouldn't talk about it." You know how many Holocaust deniers have used that as an out when they finally get in trouble for it? It's not saying you're sorry. It's not admitting you were wrong. It's saying "I won't express my incredibly vile opinion out loud anymore"—which is good and all, but is not the same as admitting that opinion was wrong to begin with.

edited 31st May '16 8:57:05 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124145: May 31st 2016 at 8:57:04 AM

[up] Can I get a link to that? I've heard contradictory claims regarding that.

Also, do realize that, as nasty as this season has gotten, it was much, much worse in 2008. The whole birther conspiracy, for example, originated from someone associated with Clinton's campaign, there were some ads put out by the Clinton campaign that were very blatantly race baiting, and several rounds where each campaign was accusing the other of racism/sexism, along with attempts to drag in Bill Clinton's sex scandal.

edited 31st May '16 9:02:27 AM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124146: May 31st 2016 at 8:57:54 AM

[up]I don't have the link. It was posted earlier in the thread by someone else who was trying to defend Cenk from accusations of being a denier. If you flip back through the forum you should find it eventually.

EDIT: Something else I'll add here because I think it's worth saying: quite a while back I criticized the Young Turks because of their name. Some people defended it because the name has other connotations, and using the term doesn't meant you are a supporter of Enver, Cemal, and Talaat.

The problem with that line of thinking? Cenk is or has been a genocide denier. You cannot deny that a particular group committed a horrific crime, name yourself after that group, and then escape the connotations.

Imagine, if you will, that there was a group called the National Socialists, who claimed that the name had no connections to Nazism whatsoever, that they were a progressive, leftist movement operating all across the country, and that was where the name came from. Now imagine that the leader of this group turned out to be a Holocaust denier.

edited 31st May '16 9:03:37 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#124147: May 31st 2016 at 9:01:05 AM

And then there are workers who are against work hours reduction because they depend of those hours to get the extra income they want or need, but they seem to be a minority.
The answer to that is pretty simple: a livable minimum wage. The sort of thing I was talking about was directed at high-paying corporate jobs, not blue collar literally "work 60+ hours a week or starve". The sort of thing with lawyers working 90 hours a week in order to turn in more billable hours to the firm so they can make partner so they can work 120 hours a week, because that's how that industry works.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124148: May 31st 2016 at 9:05:01 AM

[up]X4 I don't think Sanders should be held responsible for what his dickish allies say, but he should be help responsible for his choice to have such people as his allies.

He has not chosen to make an association with the people in social media who spew shit in his name, but the people who spew shit in his name and introduce him at rallies? Them he's chosen to make an association with and that he should be held to account over.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124149: May 31st 2016 at 9:08:42 AM

[up]In Jeff Weaver's case it goes beyond that even. He's Sanders' campaign manager. So when he does things like this, it's pretty difficult to see it as anything other than coming directly from Sanders' himself.

So long as Sanders keeps Weaver on the payroll, keeps him running the campaign, and keeps sending him around to say stuff like this, I'm going to have to assume he approves of what's being said.

edited 31st May '16 9:09:55 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124150: May 31st 2016 at 9:13:47 AM

@Ambar: Regarding TYT for better or worse, I'm afraid that's an apples to oranges comparison. The majority of countries in the world do not officially recognize the massacres of Armenians (among other ethnic minorities within the Ottoman Empire) as genocide. The United States has taken no position on the federal level, and the UK doesn't acknowledge the killings as a genocide. It's not just Turkey and its sphere doing it, and while you can decry the injustice of that (and I'd tend agree with you, denial of the Armenian genocide (at least its status as a genocide) isn't a fringe position, its the majority position of the governments of the world.

edited 31st May '16 9:15:09 AM by CaptainCapsase


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