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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#124026: May 29th 2016 at 5:01:26 PM

Sanders himself being Jewish has little to do with whether his campaign is appealing to minorities—including his fellow Jews. If you're a member of a minority but your campaign isn't doing anything to help those minorities and includes few minorities other than yourself, it's pretty fair to say that your campaign may as well just be that of another white guy.

Not to mention that of course Frank didn't call him a race traitor or anything like that. Contrast Sanders' buddy Cornel West who has claimed Obama is afraid of real black people, is Rockefeller in blackface, etc. Heck, contrast Sanders' own insistence that his presidency would be better for African-Americans than Obama's. The Sanders narrative is that they are the true progressives and will be better for all minority groups, yet minorities are strangely absent among the campaign leadership, and those who endorse them (just to use an obvious example, Sanders has West and Killer Mike supporting him. Clinton has the Congressional Black Caucus).

[up]His inability to attract non-white support, however, does say something about his policies.

edited 29th May '16 5:02:29 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#124027: May 29th 2016 at 5:07:33 PM

Moreover, I'd dispute your assertion that Sanders has been abysmal on race. Corporate media says he's abysmal on race, without really offering any basis in regards to his policy proposals
I'm not talking about his policies, I'm talking about his voters. Clinton has done better with basically every possible demographic except "young people" and "middle-class white men". Whether or not you think Sanders should have broader appeal, the fact is that he doesn't, and what Frank was doing is pointing this out, if in a somewhat less-than-diplomatic manner.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124028: May 29th 2016 at 5:08:21 PM

[up][up] I'm going to suggest once again that we drop this topic. It seems impossible to discuss the election this cycle without reaching an impasse. I do hope, by the time we reach the general election proper, you'll have realized that the way Sanders and his supporters are currently being casts as racist, sexism, reactionaries and Sanders himself as a demagogue is virtually identical to what happened to Hillary Clinton's image in the 2008 primary season. It's ultimately about a politician stepping out of line; that's something the system doesn't tolerate, whether it's a member of the party brass like Clinton or a fair-weather democrat like Sanders. Whether or not he decides to abide by the party's rules in the future will determine how corporate media handles him in the future.

[up] At this point, I'm going to have to conclude that you're being intellectually dishonest as well, because you're flat out ignoring my assertion that it's important to look at intersections of demographics rather than single factors. It simply isn't possible to be a man or a woman or what have you, every person will fall into multiple demographic groups, and as such conclusions can almost never been drawn by considering a single demographic. Sanders does well among whites, men, and among the young (plus Muslims and a few other odd groups). That does not mean he only does well among young white men like you're asserting, and like Frank seems to be insinuating. When age is by far the biggest predictor of a voter's support for Sanders versus Clinton, regardless of other demographics, what Sanders has failed to do is attract older voters consistently. He does better among men (about as much as Obama did versus Clinton), better among whites (not overwhelmingly so except among African Americans), and better among the middle class, which is why the only subset of older voters he won were white middle class males. The simple fact of the matter is that the voting coalitions that existed in the 2008 primary are not driving this primary, despite certain parties attempts to frame the demographics of this election in those terms.

edited 29th May '16 5:22:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#124029: May 29th 2016 at 5:17:24 PM

It tells us that he isn't neo-liberal enough, ambar.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124030: May 29th 2016 at 5:21:35 PM

His inability to attract non-white support, however, does say something about his policies.

So Hispanics, Jews, Asian Americans and Native Americans are all white? That's news to me.

Sanders attracts voters from all thouse demographics, he fails at attracting black voters, but that's specifically his failing with black voters, not non-White voters, unless black people are suddenly the only non-whites that count.

Clinton has done better with basically every possible demographic except "young people" and "middle-class white men".

She's done better with Hispanics, Jews, Native Americans and Asian Americans? Since when? last I saw she did better with black voters and that was it.

edited 29th May '16 5:23:46 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#124031: May 29th 2016 at 5:24:35 PM

I'm pretty sure yes with Jews, Asian-Americans and Hispanics. Not sure with Native Americans.

edited 29th May '16 5:24:47 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124032: May 29th 2016 at 5:25:59 PM

[up][up] She beat Sanders with Hispanics about 60-40, which is still a decisive victory, but not the kind of overwhelming opposition from anyone who isn't a WASP Jovian is portraying. Tellingly, approval ratings of both candidates were fairly high with Hispanics, and most said they would be fairly happy voting for the other candidate in the general election.

[up] Asian-Americans voted for Sanders last I heard; Hawaii is 66% Asian-American, and overwhelmingly favored Sanders. I don't know about the others demographics, but the whole thesis of the last post was that it's fairly pointless to look at single demographics when assessing where a candidate is getting their support from, since every person is part of a multitude of demographics.

edited 29th May '16 5:32:15 PM by CaptainCapsase

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#124033: May 29th 2016 at 5:26:32 PM

Yes, becuase Asians are so white, we can change the actor for a white guy and no one will tell. Also, hispanics are white? Tell that to dominicans, and cubans, and coastal colombian and panamanians, they all will enjoy their afro-antillian roots more knowing they are white.

Misread, I apologize, hodor 2, will keep up for posterity and shame,

edited 29th May '16 5:28:20 PM by vandro

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124034: May 29th 2016 at 5:33:39 PM

Seriously, are there any statistics on how Sanders did with minorities besides black people? People keep saying he did better with them, and I can believe it but no one ever gives statistics at large. Did he crush Clinton with them or did he only get like, 55 or 60% to her 45 or 40%?

[up][up]Hawaii is no where near 66% Asian-American.

edited 29th May '16 5:34:43 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124035: May 29th 2016 at 5:34:20 PM

[up] Here's Asian Americans (https://berniesanders.com/new-poll-shows-sanders-strong-lead-among-asian-americans/) *

Also, Hawaii is, according to wikipedia, 57.6% Asian American. Not sure where the 66% number came from, but it's reasonably close.

* Yes its Sanders website, but it has a poll backing it up, which is, AFAIK, practically the only one.

edited 29th May '16 5:38:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124036: May 29th 2016 at 5:35:46 PM

[up]Page not found.

Edit: Wikipedia doesn't give that percentage either, as far as I can see.

edited 29th May '16 5:37:55 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124037: May 29th 2016 at 5:37:55 PM

[up] http://www.gqrr.com/articles/2016/3/25/new-university-of-southern-california-dornsife-college-of-letters-arts-and-scienceslos-angeles-times-poll

That's the poll his support among Asian Americans in California is based on, and Hawaii is 57.4% Asian American, and Sanders supposedly won 66% of that vote.

Oh wait no, 66% of eligible voters in Hawaii are Asian American (Pacific Islanders). http://aapidata.com/blog/hawaii-2016-caucus/

edited 29th May '16 5:39:55 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124038: May 29th 2016 at 5:38:00 PM

Here's a working version that doesn't have a bracket and star accidentally added on the end.[1]

[up] Hawaii's numbers tell us nothing.

edited 29th May '16 5:39:25 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124040: May 29th 2016 at 5:39:04 PM

[up]Wikipedia only has it being 57% Asian in 1970 and that was when demographics were treated differently. The page for Hawaii, shows things to be very different from what you're saying. And I couldn't find what you were saying on the page you linked, anyway.

edited 29th May '16 5:40:51 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124041: May 29th 2016 at 5:40:32 PM

[up] Where are you getting that from? It says 2010.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124042: May 29th 2016 at 5:41:23 PM

[up]From here. I think I understand what the problem is.

[down]Yeah, I realized that. Should figured it out sooner.

edited 29th May '16 5:44:54 PM by LSBK

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124043: May 29th 2016 at 5:43:33 PM

The 57% is from 2010 but its Asiain or multiracial with at least one Asian part, not simply Asian.

Interestingly enough in 2008 Asian Americans were the largest minority in Vermont.

edited 29th May '16 5:44:17 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mars444 Since: May, 2013
#124044: May 29th 2016 at 5:43:38 PM

I'm pretty late, but that Barney Frank's response to Sanders that was posted a few pages back is apparently fake. Sorry.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#124045: May 29th 2016 at 5:44:00 PM

you're flat out ignoring my assertion that it's important to look at intersections of demographics rather than single factors
Someone's age is a single factor. You can't say "look at the demographics — men, women, whites, blacks, hispanics — doesn't matter! They all like Sanders (as long as they're under 30)!" and then tell me with a straight face that you're taking a wider view of things by not focusing on a single factor.

Yes, it's true that young people generally favor Sanders, regardless of race. However, that doesn't mean that Sanders does well among people regardless of race. Election results correlate very highly with race. The whiter a state, the better Sanders does. The less-white a state, the better Clinton does. Here's a good article (from about six weeks ago) on it.

Sanders does well among whites, men, and among the young (plus Muslims and a few other odd groups). That does not mean he only does well among young white men like you're asserting, and like Frank seems to be insinuating.
Maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that Sanders does well among young people, white people, and men, as three separate groups, not that he only does well against people who are young and white and male.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124046: May 29th 2016 at 5:47:09 PM

[up] I was pointing out that age was by far the most significant factor; in pretty much any intersection, young voters, particularly young first time voters favored Sanders over Clinton. I'm not denying the fact that Sanders did better among whites than Clinton did, but the way you're phrasing it gives the impression that Sanders had virtually no support among minorities at all, which simply wasn't the case; even among African Americans he did better versus Clinton than Clinton did versus Obama.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#124047: May 29th 2016 at 5:48:40 PM

[up][up] It's not the less white a state the better Clinton does, it's the more black a state the better Clinton does. Hawaii went to Sanders and I don't belive he got crushed in the Hispanic states the way he did in the black ones (I belvie they were close races), California will tell us a lot as well. I've no idea what states have the highest percentages of Jews, Native Americans or Arab Americans (nor if they are big enough groups to tip a state) so I can't judge them, but let's please stop acting like black people are the only valid racial minority group.

Oh and I don't think Sanders does lead strongly with all youth, I think younge blacks are tied.

edited 29th May '16 5:49:19 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#124048: May 29th 2016 at 5:49:52 PM

[up][up][awesome]

@Mars 444- Well, I feel kind of stupid now. It does make sense though as I wouldn't have necessarily thought Frank would ignore Sanders being Jewish while make a big deal of DWS being Jewish.

edited 29th May '16 5:50:12 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#124049: May 29th 2016 at 5:50:32 PM

[up][up] It's very close among young blacks, but it's also a much bigger difference than most other racial demographics compared to age last I checked; older blacks are slightly more than half as likely to support Sanders as younger blacks.

edited 29th May '16 5:51:02 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#124050: May 29th 2016 at 5:52:15 PM

but let's please stop acting like black people are the only valid racial minority group.

I have to agree with this, even if I still find the claim that Sanders has broader appeal suspect.


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