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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#123951: May 29th 2016 at 10:20:46 AM

"I don't know if it's because he buys his own hype and honestly sees himself as the only one who can actually advance a liberal platform, or if he's just sort of a dick and is willing to throw his political allies under the bus if that's better for his candidacy, but the effect is pretty much the same either way."

I think it mostly stems from him being a 75-year-old man who has spent his entire political career being ignored on the fringe, and getting a little too drunk on his own hype. It's honestly understandable, but it's going to hurt the party if he continues to poison the well.

"Dangerous in the sense that he's appealing to the general public without also checking with the political elite to see if they're alright with it."

"The general public" is filled with ignorant rubes. Appealing to them uncritically is always dangerous.

edited 29th May '16 10:22:09 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123952: May 29th 2016 at 10:22:22 AM

[up] New's flash, he's been backing down over the past few days. He's taken back the "primaries are rigged" statement for one, and reaffirmed that he has no intention of running third party.

On your second remark, you can't have things both way: either Sanders's supposed "we know what's best for you better than you do" attitude is bad, or he's dangerous for bypasses the economic and political elite and appealing to the proletariat masses directly.

edited 29th May '16 10:32:44 AM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#123953: May 29th 2016 at 10:27:25 AM

Sanders sure does have it both ways.

edited 29th May '16 10:28:03 AM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123954: May 29th 2016 at 10:31:29 AM

[up] Those two stances are inherent contradictions. In fairness, in many, perhaps most cases its been different people making different claims on why Sanders's campaign is dangerous, but I've definitely seen instances where the same person argued both that his appeal to the masses was dangerous and that he should stop acting like he knows better for people of the working class than they do. (ignoring of course that, as far as polling on individual policy positions go, the American people do generally agree with him (>50% on most positions), and the democratic base does so overwhelmingly (>50 even when the question is loaded with statements about taxation))

edited 29th May '16 10:43:38 AM by CaptainCapsase

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#123955: May 29th 2016 at 10:38:06 AM

Listen: let's be realistic there's almost no way Clinton is going to address any of the issues with how undemocratic our supposed democracy is
Let me stop you right there. If we're being realistic, there's no way that Sanders is even going to get the Democratic nomination, much less win the general election, so if we're being realistic, then why are we even still talking about Sanders at all? Even if you think that Clinton is a stuffed shirt beholden to "the system" who isn't going to change anything (which I disagree with, but putting that aside for the moment), maintaining the status quo is still a better option than the insanity that would be a Trump presidency. So why does Sanders appear to be willing to throw Clinton under the bus, even at this relatively late hour? Either he honestly thinks that Clinton would be just as bad as Trump so it's either him or nothing (in which case he's delusional) or he just doesn't give a damn and would rather give himself an extreme longshot at winning even if that means risking a Trump presidency (in which case he's an asshole).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123956: May 29th 2016 at 10:39:19 AM

[up] Once again, I point out that's he's winding down now that his defeat is assured. Like, actually winding down. He took back his statements about the primaries being rigged, and he's affirmed he's not going to run third party and people should vote against Trump, especially if they are in a contested state.

edited 29th May '16 10:40:50 AM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#123957: May 29th 2016 at 10:43:57 AM

"Winding down" isn't good enough. He ought to have conceded by now.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123958: May 29th 2016 at 10:45:04 AM

[up] Hold your own candidate to the same standards then; Clinton was still in the primary until June 7th in 2008, and I expect Sanders to drop out at that point as well.

edited 29th May '16 10:50:06 AM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#123959: May 29th 2016 at 10:54:15 AM

Another person's evil does not make you good.

Non Indicative Username
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#123960: May 29th 2016 at 10:54:39 AM

Demanding that the DNC remove certain people he doesn't like from their policy boards (when the only reason he has any say at all in that decision is because the DNC, which normally appoints them all, decided to let him) with the threat of essentially filibustering the nomination via procedural stonewalling if he doesn't get his way doesn't strike me as "winding down".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123961: May 29th 2016 at 10:57:17 AM

[up] Let's wait and see if he actually does that; he wants more control over the party's platform, in the same way Hillary Clinton wanted to be appointed to a cabinet position (among other concessions she may or may not have gotten from Obama), and if he stops just short of actually stonewalling the convention in order to get just a few more concessions from he democrats, that's all the better.

@flame: I would hardly call what Sanders is doing, and what Clinton was doing in 2008 "evil." These kinds of games of chicken are an inherent part of politics as usual.

edited 29th May '16 11:00:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#123962: May 29th 2016 at 11:00:09 AM

Is there a link to that "Sanders backing down" thing that isn't the TYT youtube video?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123963: May 29th 2016 at 11:00:54 AM

[up] http://bluenationreview.com/wait-bernie-says-democratic-primary-not-rigged/

There's him taking back his statement that the primary was rigged, and as rightfully dismissive as you are of TYT, it wasn't them reporting something he said or inferring something, it was him coming on air and affirming he was not going to run third party, and that people should vote against Trump.

edited 29th May '16 11:02:15 AM by CaptainCapsase

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#123964: May 29th 2016 at 11:03:15 AM

I'm not being dismissive of TYT, i just wanted a link i could share that wouldn't require people watch a video.

Thanks!

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#123965: May 29th 2016 at 11:03:33 AM

Another person's evil does not make you good.

Thank you. I keep looking at these comments going "Well, Clinton didn't back out at this point either" as if that somehow makes it better. Has anyone said she was being smart or not stubborn by not backing out? No, so I fail to see how it's a proper defense. If anything, saying "Clinton did it" should hurt your argument since a lot of you are assuming he has an actually good purpose for staying in.

edited 29th May '16 11:05:40 AM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123966: May 29th 2016 at 11:07:17 AM

[up] The GOP has not produced a remotely competitive candidate this year, and everything from demographics to electoral maps are against them this cycle. Short of running as a spoiler (which he's already said he won't do, and has also affirmed recently), he's not going to seriously harm the party's chances of victory no matter what he does. The longer he remains in the race, the more chances to get concessions he has. That's politics.

edited 29th May '16 11:10:00 AM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123967: May 29th 2016 at 11:08:39 AM

Because Clinton's willingness to do it and the total lack of criticism aimed at her over it indicates that sticking around for a long time is the norm and acceptable, it's only become unacceptable new that Sanders is doing it.

As for Sanders on committee stuff, is he threatening to derail the nomination or run third party? Or just engage in the same standard bureaucratic bullshiting that everyone engages in?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123968: May 29th 2016 at 11:12:41 AM

[up] He's supposedly threatening to hold up the convention through technicalities, but we'll have to see whether he actually goes ahead and does it first. Clinton made very similar threats in 2008, which stopped, but were not taken back, after getting some concessions from Obama.

edited 29th May '16 11:15:00 AM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123969: May 29th 2016 at 11:15:12 AM

Hold up or shut down? A hold up is a hassle that had to be worked around and slows everything down, a shutdown is actually dangerous and would seriously hurt the Democrats.

Out of curiosity, did any bullshit like this happen in 2004 and 2000? I'm assuming that it's pretty much standard practise.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123970: May 29th 2016 at 11:18:46 AM

[up] It's just an inconvenience to the party brass, nothing serious, though it would probably hurt their image a tiny bit, and their pride a great deal more.

edited 29th May '16 11:20:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#123971: May 29th 2016 at 11:34:36 AM

"Hold your own candidate to the same standards then; Clinton was still in the primary until June 7th in 2008, and I expect Sanders to drop out at that point as well."

Not the best example. Clinton's lead was razor thin, as in, she and Obama were separated by a couple dozen delegates, at most, for the entirety of May, and even after the convention, Obama won by less than one hundred delegates. Who would be the nominee was genuinely in question, whereas here, it's clearly going to be Hillary. Bernie's deficit of two hundred will never go away, and the only thing he can do now is drive a wedge between his supporters and the rest of the Democrats.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123972: May 29th 2016 at 11:45:27 AM

[up] Clinton managed to resolve an even greater wedge between her own backers and Obama's in the same time frame. Moreover, there was a legitimately competitive race to look forward to; everything is against the GOP this cycle, and nothing Sanders could do short of a third party run would change that.

edited 29th May '16 11:48:24 AM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123973: May 29th 2016 at 12:00:13 PM

Sanders can do more then drive a wedge, he can heal the existing one by getting policies that his base favour added to the platform.

If he just walked away and his supporters get nothing then some of them are going to stay home come November, but if he wins them a few small policy victories then they've got a win and can fall in line behind Clinton with a smile.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123974: May 29th 2016 at 12:17:48 PM

[up][up] Reminder, Trump topped Clinton in a recent poll. So yeah this race will be competitive.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123975: May 29th 2016 at 12:21:14 PM

[up] He did, but the realities of American demographics and of the electoral map means that he's got to do much better than be competitive in polling, which doesn't account for the many convoluted elements of the American electoral system; he'd need to absolutely dominate Clinton to win, and that would entail either suppressing the votes of the minorities he's been scapegoating or somehow convincing them to vote for him in some appreciable quantities.

edited 29th May '16 12:22:23 PM by CaptainCapsase


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