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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#123926: May 29th 2016 at 7:34:38 AM

Sanders not dropping out isn't too bad, but him ramping up his attacks on Clinton/the DNC when he has no reasonable path to victory is only helping the Republicans.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123927: May 29th 2016 at 7:35:30 AM

[up] He certainly hasn't been ramping up attacks in the past few days; he's taken back the "primary is rigged" statement at this point, which I presume is the first step on his path to conceding defeat.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#123928: May 29th 2016 at 7:37:14 AM

[up]Wasn't aware of that, good on Sanders then. It makes sense, given that Clinton will mathematically win in pledged delegates after the 7th, unless Sanders pulls off a miraculous upset.

I think he'd be an excellent attack dog in the general, he could fire up his supporters and go after the GOP while Clinton lays out her policies. He won't be on the ticket, but maybe the DNC could offer him a core party position/committee appointment or even a Cabinet post?

edited 29th May '16 7:38:03 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#123929: May 29th 2016 at 7:44:41 AM

[up] Supposedly, if the Democrats retake the Senate, there's a good chance Sanders'll end up at the head of the budget committee.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#123930: May 29th 2016 at 7:46:03 AM

Clinton has picked up yet another ringing endorsement from a conservative.

Hillary Clinton snagged another endorsement over the weekend, but don't expect her to trumpet it on the campaign trail.

"I have a little announcement to make ... I'm voting for Hillary. I am endorsing Hillary," noted conservative author P.J. O'Rourke said on NPR's Wait Wait ... Don't Tell Me. The episode aired over the weekend.

If the Clinton campaign wants to tout O'Rourke's support as it tries to woo moderate Republicans who supported Jeb Bush and George W. Bush, it might want to end the quote there.

"I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises," O'Rourke continued. "It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."

While many Republicans are falling in line — however reluctantly — behind de facto GOP nominee Donald Trump, O'Rourke is joining other prominent conservative authors like Bill Kristol, George Will and Erick Erickson in continuing to oppose a Trump candidacy.

"This man just can't be president," O'Rourke said, alluding to the nuclear codes the commander-in-chief takes control of upon assuming office. "They've got this button — this briefcase. He's going to find it."

"That is a ringing endorsement," fellow panelist Tom Bodett said after hearing O'Rourke's pitch.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123931: May 29th 2016 at 7:54:53 AM

Has Sanders been attacking Clinton? He's been pushing the DNC and Dem leadership but I've heard nothing about him going after Clinton and her campaign, he seems to be focused on fighting with the Dem leadership over policy stuff rather then fighting Clinton for the nomination.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#123932: May 29th 2016 at 7:59:19 AM

My point was that the media was absolutely hysterical about Trump since the very beginning of his campaign, well before he'd said anything more vile than any of the other Republican candidates.

Remember when he became the face of birtherism back in 2012?

Even ignoring that, Trump has always been something of a celebrity especially on the East Coast. The Clintons went to his weddings, Romney groveled for his endorsement, and he even starred in Mc Donalds 'commercials.

Not to mention he's flirted with idea of becoming president since the 1980s.

edited 29th May '16 8:01:18 AM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123933: May 29th 2016 at 8:02:46 AM

[up] Once again, I'm talking about things he's said compared to things other members of the GOP have said in the past. The birther conspiracy was touted by several GOP big wigs, presumably for political reasons, but there wasn't really any reason to assume that wasn't the case with Trump as well until this particular cycle.

My whole point is that mainstream (corporate) media rushed to declare him "the second coming of Hitler" not because of anything he did or said; the rest of the GOP was every bit as crazy as he appeared to be at the start of his campaign, but because he wasn't part of the political orthodoxy. He's managed to turn that to his advantage, and now the GOP brass are bowing their heads and saying "okay, you can join the club, asshole", which is why, at least as far as right-wing media goes, attacks on Trump have gradually dwindled.

edited 29th May '16 8:06:29 AM by CaptainCapsase

Mars444 Since: May, 2013
#123934: May 29th 2016 at 8:24:17 AM

[up][up][up] Sanders has been constantly insinuating that Clinton is corrupt and in the pocket of big banks, and he's also been constantly asserting that he's the victim of a corrupt electoral system instead of, you know, losing because less people are voting for him. If those aren't attacks then I don't know what is.

Also, as for Sanders' personal failings, let me just quote progressive stalwart Barney Frank, who actually has accomplishments from his time in Congress:

"His holier-than-thou attitude - saying in a very loud voice he is smarter than everyone else and purer than everyone - really undercuts his effectiveness ... To him, anybody who disagrees with him is a crook; there are no honest disagreements with people. Bernie's view of the world is that the great majority of people agree with him on all the issues and the only reason he does not win is that the Congress is crooked"

"Democratic Lawmaker Criticizes Bernie Sanders" Bangor Daily News, July 12, 1991.

That's right. Bernie's "my way or you're corrupt" brand of dogmatism is not a new thing.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#123935: May 29th 2016 at 8:28:24 AM

I suspect Sanders not dropping out is essentially him trying to put the DNC in a position where they are forced to adopt at least some of his platform. The sooner he drops out the more time it gives the public to forget about his positions and proposals and go back to business as usual. He may well believe that if he runs the race to the last day and has the DNC worried about upsetting his supporters and losing them, then it gives him a much better chance to get at least some of what he wants adopted by the party instead of giving them a couple of months to quietly bury him and do their thing. On a similar note, I think his desire to debate Trump was both to up his prestige/popularity in the last days of the primary and to directly attack a man who epitomizes the "millionaires and billionaires" system that Bernie so despises. Even though he didn't get the chance, hopefully Trump blatantly backing down will be a blow to Trump's faux "tough guy" persona/authoritarian right wing blowhard appeal.

But I'm neither close to Sanders or a mind reader, so this is all rank speculation on my part. I will say that I always viewed Clinton as an easy second choice, and like many here I've gotten disenchanted with Bernie as the campaign slogs on. Considering how much time Trump has to screw himself over, how big he has to win his core demographics to have a chance at winning the election, (according to at least one article I saw, to offset his minuses with many other demographics, he'd have to win at least 2/3 of the white vote, which no one has even come close to since 1984, and given how poorly he does with women, including white women, that ain't happening) how crappy presidential polls for the general election normally are in May, how the Electoral College favors Democrats at this point in history, etc., etc., I'm not worried at the moment about a Democrat taking the presidency.

I am a little more worried about the Senate and whether the Dems can regain control there. The House, sadly, is probably not a possibility, but I'm keeping hope alive that 2020, as another presidential year and a census year also, will result in the House and state districts being redrawn in lines that are less egregiously tilted towards Republicans and the Tea Party.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123936: May 29th 2016 at 8:32:34 AM

[up][up] Statisically speaking, the majority of Americans (>50%) do in fact support Sanders' individual positions, and except on trade, the same is true for a large majority of economists as far as the broad strokes go. Congress as an institution has not abided by the will of the American people for a long, long time, if it ever truly did; the positions of the general population have little to no impact on policymaking in congress, even when you're talking about democrats. So it's not unreasonable to call congress an oligarchy, and while it's certainly not corrupt in a legal sense, it's every bit as bought and paid for as Sanders' claims it to be, through a legitimate and legally sanctioned process.

That's what people are referring to when they remark that the parties are Not So Different; both of them are functionally proxies for different factions within the American economic, political, and military elite, and while the democrats are clearly the superior option, they are no more beholden to the will of average Americans than the Republicans are.

edited 29th May '16 8:50:48 AM by CaptainCapsase

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123937: May 29th 2016 at 8:50:25 AM

[up] Most people support his positions, they just don't want to pay for them.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123938: May 29th 2016 at 8:52:32 AM

[up] That's the perplexing American aversion to taxation at work there; even if you're paying less in taxes for public healthcare than you would for private healthcare of a similar quality, taxation is viewed as evil, even by large portions of the democratic base.

edited 29th May '16 8:56:09 AM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#123939: May 29th 2016 at 8:59:47 AM

I could argue with much of the above, but won't bother. Instead I'll say this—I'd prefer an oligarchy with an eye for the big picture, than a man who genuinely can't see beyond wherever he's standing at any given moment. When Sanders was running in Vermont he didn't care about anybody anywhere else. Now that he's running for President he doesn't care about anyone outside of the USA. That's a recipe for disaster.

@Silasw

I honestly don't know what to tell you beyond what I've said already. Sanders' campaign has moved to consistently position him as the messiah, when the reality is that he's got as many skeletons in his closet as any other major politician. It's a campaign built on hypocrisy, and on fanning the flames of 25 year old Republican talking points on the evils of Clinton. No matter what Sanders may be like on the personal level, the way he's played things this campaign, and the cult of hero worship that he's built up around himself leave me decidedly sour on the man. It's not accidental that the campaign is attracting the support of various sexists and xenophobes within the liberal movement—all you have to do is look at Sanders' rhetoric, and the way he's run in the past to get where it's coming from.

I'm used to leftists attacking one another in elections. It happens in literally every Canadian election, when the NDP and the Liberals (and sometimes the Green Party and the Bloc) go after one another. But the places that Sanders' supporters have taken it to in this election is particularly ugly, and the man himself has done a remarkably poor job of telling them to cut it out.

This piece nicely sums up where I stand honestly, on both him and Clinton.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123940: May 29th 2016 at 9:39:59 AM

all you have to do is look at Sanders' rhetoric, and the way he's run in the past to get where it's coming from.

Can you share with me that rhetoric? What it is he's said? Because I hear this a lot and yet don't seem to ever get told what it is he's said that has drawn these people. If he's actively seeking them out then yes that's a problem, but if they're throwing themselves behind him of their own desires that's on them not Sanders, the same way I'd never blame Clinton for having gotten the support of the anti-Semitic wing of the Democratic Party, that's not due to her actions, it's due to bigots backing whoever they can that's against the groups they hate.

But the places that Sanders' supporters have taken it to in this election is particularly ugly, and the man himself has done a remarkably poor job of telling them to cut it out.

This election is less ugly then 2008, belvie me Sanders hasn't gotten that bad by US standards.

edited 29th May '16 9:41:01 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#123941: May 29th 2016 at 9:44:41 AM

Sanders' campaign has moved to consistently position him as the messiah

Regarding Sanders as the Messiah: I think that's more his internet following than his campaign, per se, at least according to what I've seen, although I'm open to seeing evidence that his campaign is trying to invoke this.

But I really have to say, and it saddens me, that it seems many leftists have a big old messiah complex, at least here in the States. Everyone looks for the perfect person who is completely uncompromised, has just the right ideas, and will lead us to a golden age through how good they are and that good person coming to power. It's sort of like a Rightful King Returns thing, except with ideology.

And, of course, it's bullshit. Getting where you want to go as a country, a culture, politically, etc. doesn't happen as the result of one good person decreeing it so and everyone else bowing down to them because of their sheer goodness and pureness. It's a long, grinding process of, in the case of a modern country, thousands of people actively working together in positions of power and millions of people continuing to push for it year after year through how they vote, how they advocate as citizens and activists, and keeping at it despite setbacks and reasons to be discouraged.

The strain of thought that American left has that they can elect one good president and then sigh in relief, walk away from the whole process and stop paying attention to it while that one person they elected takes care of everything needs to die hard and fast. People need to get both realistic and informed about the fact that things don't work that way, and if they really want change to come, they have to be willing to work for it and be the fuel for that change.

And honestly, I'm not sure that the American left will get the change they want until they do abandon that messiah complex and embrace the idea that they do need to be willing to engage more and get their hands dirtier in the process.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123942: May 29th 2016 at 9:50:24 AM

[up][up][up] Sanders' view is that America's interactions overseas have by and large been to the detriment of the rest of the world's population; which is a view I'd share for the most part; the realities of our modern system dictate that imperialism is inevitable, necessary even, but that doesn't justify it, nor should we simply accept a priori that this state of affairs is immutable. Society can and has in the past changed for the better in ways that seemed impossible for people living in earlier periods of history. Call that isolationism if you will, but I disagree with the premise that the United States should constantly be looking to expand its power and influence elsewhere no matter the cost to the rest of the world's population.

My distaste for Clinton comes not so much from the fact that I do not trust her to keep to her word; that's true of most politicians, Sanders included, but that her core message is ultimately one of defeatism; the status quo of modern society—insofar as we are talking about the arrangement of power structures—is taken for granted as immutable. Call me naive, an idealist, or a dirty commie if you care to, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion, for example, that the lower classes of society can only benefit from state policy when the dominant faction of the ruling class expects to benefit equally or more than the poor. Certainly not when the reverse (the ruling case benefits at the expense of the working class) is so often the case. While that statement describes the state of affairs as it exists today, but that does not mean we should simply accept such realities as a fact of society, and not seek to change or improve upon them.

Much more than his policy positions, the fact that Sanders dared to question many of the underpinnings of our society is why I preferred him over Clinton. In spite of Trump's bluster and the bad blood between factions within what qualifies as the left in America, there is no reasonable way the GOP can win the general election in the current political climate or in the foreseeable future; everything from demographics to the structure of the electoral college is stacked against them. If Trump overcomes all that and is elected President, it's the democrats' own damn fault unless Sanders breaks his word and runs third party. To preempt assertions about how Clinton would accomplish so much more than Sanders, who would helplessly flail against GOP obstruction, I point to the example of Obama's presidency. The only things Clinton will accomplish will involve bypassing congress via supreme court nominations and executive orders, bipartisan efforts that benefit the elite from both sides of the isle like some of the more controversial provisions in the TPP, or outright caving into the demands of the GOP. A hypothetical Sanders' presidency would have the same net result in all likelihood, but the mere presence of a self-identified socialist in the office would do a great deal to legitimize ideologies which actually seek to improve upon the human condition rather than simply coping with it. A small victory for the "far" left in the grand scheme of things, and honestly not that much greater than what's been accomplished in that regards in the primary, but a victory is a victory.

edited 29th May '16 9:54:07 AM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123943: May 29th 2016 at 9:55:45 AM

[up] Sanders' view on US interaction oversees seems to be the same as his view on Vermont's interaction with other states, that of "I'm running for election in the US/Vermont". I'll defend him on many things but his foreign policy seems to be dangerous isolationism a nd that would abandon a lot of people in the world.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#123944: May 29th 2016 at 10:00:32 AM

Bernie's "my way or you're corrupt" brand of dogmatism
This is the core of what pisses me off about Sanders. There's no respectful disagreement. There's no "I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree and here's why". There's no acknowledgement that other people may be honestly mistaken in their beliefs, much less that their differences of opinion may be valid — either you agree with Sanders, or you're an evil bastard working to prop up the corrupt system for your own benefit.

Calling out actual corruption is one thing, but Sanders takes it too far. An axiomatic "us vs them" attitude is not reasonable.

I suspect Sanders not dropping out is essentially him trying to put the DNC in a position where they are forced to adopt at least some of his platform.
There's absolutely no problem with that. The problem is the way he's going about it. I like a lot of Bernie's positions and think it'd be great if he could get Clinton to take some of them up. But the things he's doing — feuding with the DNC, proposing debates with Trump, the way he attacks Clinton as part of a corrupt system instead of saying "her policies are good, but don't go far enough" — are ultimately hurting the progressive cause. He's putting himself, personally, before the political agenda he purports to support. I don't know if it's because he buys his own hype and honestly sees himself as the only one who can actually advance a liberal platform, or if he's just sort of a dick and is willing to throw his political allies under the bus if that's better for his candidacy, but the effect is pretty much the same either way.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#123945: May 29th 2016 at 10:02:56 AM

Funny thing is Barney Frank has been literally saying this for 25 years, and back in July, actively warned the Dems and anyone who listened that he was a dangerous demagogue.

Dude was a straight up prophet.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123946: May 29th 2016 at 10:08:46 AM

See now that rhetoric certainly comes out of Sanders online supporters and especially online media like TYT, but has it come from Sanders himself?

I guess I'm so used to reasonable figures being blamed for the actions of fringe groups that they have no control over, specifically so that they can be discredited via guilt by association, that in vary weary of such accusations.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123947: May 29th 2016 at 10:10:08 AM

[up][up][up] Listen: let's be realistic there's almost no way Clinton is going to address any of the issues with how undemocratic our supposed democracy is, whether we're talking campaign finance's inherent conflicts of interest, or electoral reform, or even more far reaching issues with the system we have right now. That's because I can say with a fair amount of confidence that, unless she's been pulling off one of the longest cons in political history, she's not going to even try. Sanders would try, and probably fail, but I can say with the same degree of confidence that he would try.

I have no doubt Clinton will achieve a fair amount of positive change in other areas, but if that change comes with the compromise of further undermining what little pluralism our system has, that's not an acceptable compromise, since it paves the path for undoing that progress as soon as the whims of the elite shift.

[up][up] Dangerous in the sense that he's appealing to the general public without also checking with the political elite to see if they're alright with it.

edited 29th May '16 10:14:37 AM by CaptainCapsase

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#123948: May 29th 2016 at 10:12:23 AM

From what I've seen of debates and speeches of his, his curmudgeonness doesn't help him in that regard. It's really hard to tell what is active dislike toward those who don't agree with his ideals and irritation that they don't simply nod their head because he's tired of trying to convince you when it comes to him, in other words.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#123949: May 29th 2016 at 10:14:27 AM

Hillary is going to appoint judges to overturn Citizen's United, so she'll try. I'd be very surprised if she won't.

Also, I'll say that her saying "You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts," (originally coined by her predecessor to New York Senate) to a protester in Kentucky is the best thing Hillary Clinton has ever said.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123950: May 29th 2016 at 10:15:57 AM

[up] Citizens United is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deep seeded issues with how the American system works, from campaign finance to the structure of elections to the ; it's very likely to be repealed as a token gesture to pacify the masses, but that doesn't do much to help matters; the amount of money private interests can give to particular candidates is less of a problem than the fact that they're allowed to pay them at all, in any capacity. It's a psychological phenomena rather than overt corruption, but it's well documented that people generally feel obligated to remunerate others when they are given something as a gift, whether that's money, a nice meal, flowers, and so on, even if the gift is given as a donation.

edited 29th May '16 10:21:36 AM by CaptainCapsase


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