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germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#123576: May 26th 2016 at 2:41:29 AM

[up][up] Are you seriously calling Mc Govern and Mondale "far left"? Without getting into the terrible way of how judging things by 'left' or 'right' is, when I think of far left images of fringe Maoist or Marxist-Leninist parties come to mind.

And by "more people saying what I've been saying" you mean the author of one article who happens to agree with your views. Then again, you have a very cynical understanding of the situation which does no favours for what is supposed to be a democratic process.

[up] The idea of "teaming up" against Hillary is deeply rooted in the a notion of oligarchical power play of representatives, the election of candidates being seen as a competition of rivals rather than the pursuit of voting for the most virtuous, competent, knowledgeable or excellent. How could one not see the "political" arena in such a way when we think the worst of our fellow man? So be it, even if it undermines the system of representation that we are so very proud of and is supposedly a better system than any other that has come before or will come after. Even if it allows for mediocrity or worse to govern and legislate our laws, let us be "wise" by being cynical.

edited 26th May '16 2:47:50 AM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#123577: May 26th 2016 at 3:02:24 AM

Such a Trump-Sanders debate (aside from being really quixotic) can hurt Clinton, I'd say. Whether by accident or by intention, is a different question though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#123578: May 26th 2016 at 3:20:46 AM

It can also hurt Trump. It bears repeating that every debate Trump's been in has been against people who are not willing to wholeheartedly reject his ideas or rhetoric. That would not be the case in a debate against Sanders, and however much Sanders himself relies on broad appeals to emotion, he's never been shy about criticising Trump's bile.

It can also help Clinton, in the sense that a high-profile clash between Sanders and Trump could make Sanders's supporters less likely to jump over to Trump in the general election.

edited 26th May '16 3:30:52 AM by DrDougsh

Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#123579: May 26th 2016 at 6:19:06 AM

~Tactical Fox 88 and ~Jasaiga: We recently banned some rabid Bernie supporters who were repeating character assassination lines against Clinton. We won't hesitate to do the same thing to people who ape character assassination lines against Sanders. This topic only works when it's kept civil.

edited 26th May '16 6:19:28 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#123580: May 26th 2016 at 6:33:02 AM

Those posts were at least worthwhile because they demonstrate that Sanders would hardly be immune from muckraking like his supporters seem to think.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#123581: May 26th 2016 at 6:34:15 AM

That, at least, I'll agree with. There is plenty of stuff in his past that could become interesting fodder for a general election scuffle.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#123582: May 26th 2016 at 6:48:46 AM

I've been getting the feeling for a long time now that a large part of the flavor of the Democrats' side of the fight has been built up around Clinton's respective handicaps and advantages as a seasoned campaigner, versus Sanders, who has been more of a localized entity. People assume like there's more dirt on Clinton just because she's been active in the public consciousness and open to scrutiny and attack for so long, whereas no one really gave a damn about Sanders until recently.

But it'd take a lot of mud to sling to make anyone look dirtier than Trump, I'll tell you that for free.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#123583: May 26th 2016 at 6:50:29 AM

No kidding. I wonder if Trump's mechanisms for deflecting criticism of himself will work in the general election:

  • Threatening to sue the parties criticizing him.
  • Digging up all kinds of counter-dirt and throwing preemptive accusations.
  • Name-calling and belittling.

He recently attacked the governor of New Mexico, Susana Martinez, who happens to be the first woman governor of that state, is the nation's first Latina governor, and is also the chair of the Republican Governors' Association, calling her "lazy", a common racial slur against Hispanics.

Martinez, of course, has refused to endorse him or attend his rallies, and even considered not attending the Republican National Convention before being reminded that it's her obligation as RGA chair.

edited 26th May '16 6:54:19 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#123584: May 26th 2016 at 6:57:18 AM

Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) has joined a growing chorus of Republicans demanding the ouster of the Veterans Affairs chief who compared wait times for medical attention to lines at Disneyland.
Well gosh, Ted, maybe you shouldn't have voted to cut funding for the VA.
It can also help Clinton, in the sense that a high-profile clash between Sanders and Trump could make Sanders's supporters less likely to jump over to Trump in the general election.
The problem with this is that there's still ~1/3 of Bernie supporters who are unwilling to vote for Clinton. If they are then unwilling to vote for Trump either, what then? Do they stay home? Write-in votes for Bernienote ? Vote Libertarian?
Martinez, of course, has refused to endorse him or attend his rallies, and even considered not attending the Republican National Convention before being reminded that it's her obligation as RGA chair.
I rather hope she still doesn't show up. Or walks out the moment Drumpf opens his mouth.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#123585: May 26th 2016 at 7:01:17 AM

Now Sanders shouldn't be on the ticket for other reasons, but vunurability to attack ads is not a valid reason when Clinton is the other half of the ticket.
The difference there is that Clinton has been dealing with that kind of thing for 20+ years, and shown that she can hold up under it. Most of the mud to be thrown at Clinton is either old news or has been beaten to death in the last year or two. Sanders hasn't faced the kind of national-level negative campaigning that Clinton has, and most of the stuff that would be used against him is new to the public at large. There's plenty of fodder for attack ads on both candidates, but Sanders is more vulnerable to them because he hasn't been a constant target of them since the 90s.

I'm not sure why you think Sanders debating Trump is such a terrible idea. For Sanders, the debate will be a huge boost in publicity if nothing else, and if he does well it'd reinforce the idea that he's better suited to run against Trump than Clinton. Same for Trump — with little to do until he's named the GOP nominee, another big profile debate with a crowd-attracting rival would keep him in the spotlight. I don't get how any of you are concluding that this means Sanders is "teaming up" with Trump to screw over Clinton.
Because everything you mention is bad for Clinton. She's going to be the Democratic nominee; it's not mathematically impossible for Sanders to win yet, but it's effectively impossible, as he'd have to win all the remaining states with huge margins (like 70+% of the vote) and/or inspire mass defections by pledged superdelegates that we have no reason to expect. With that in mind, Sanders should be focusing on pulling Clinton farther left while priming his supporters in the primary to become her supporters in the general. If he debates Trump, then that gives Trump more spotlight (bad for everyone but Trump), and if he does well then that's going to make his supporters dislike Clinton even more (as it's "proof" that he'd do well in the general) while if he does poorly then it's free poll bumps for Trump.

This doesn't benefit anyone but Trump. Not even Bernie — he's going to lose no matter what at this point, so what does winning a debate against Trump do except provide an ego boost? It would just divide the Democratic electorate further, which hurts him in the long run. He's old enough that it's unlikely that he's going to make another presidential run (especially if Clinton wins and he wouldn't be running again until 2024), and pissing off the people he's trying to convince to enact his policies isn't going to help his case.

It's pretty much a no-win situation.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#123586: May 26th 2016 at 7:29:23 AM

Trump gets the 1237. Dammit. Just, dammit. What the hell is wrong with people.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#123587: May 26th 2016 at 7:34:15 AM

  1. Never Trump was such a joke,

So much for that.

New Survey coming this weekend!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#123588: May 26th 2016 at 8:02:02 AM

[up][up] Wasn't that pretty much a forgone conclusion by this point?

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#123589: May 26th 2016 at 8:06:25 AM

I'll reiterate everything that Native Jovian just said. Sanders vs Trump will, one way or another, hurt Clinton and help Trump. Even if Sanders doesn't say a single bad thing about her it will reinforce the idea among his supporters that it should be him and not Clinton running against Trump in the general. By letting them see what they want to see it gives them the chance to further harden their resolve.

As for the attack ads thing, I again agree with Native Jovian. Sanders and his supporters have several times now, fallen back on his supposedly being more electable than Clinton based on current polling. The problem is that said polling does not take into account that Sanders' record has not come under the kind of sustained attacks that Clinton's has. There's not much you can say about Clinton that hasn't been said—her negatives are about as high as they can get. Conversely, Sanders' ability to survive an assault on his character is completely up in the air, and with Trump as the presumptive GOP nominee, this is going to be a negative campaign even by their standards.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123590: May 26th 2016 at 8:30:31 AM

For better or worse, a major political shakeup in more or less inevitable in America in the near future. It's something that's happened time and time again in our political history, and while the current political status quo of the past few decades was able to remain for far longer than usual, the mechanisms that enabled that-strategic capture of mass media coupled with electoral tampering (chiefly gerrymandering)-are breaking down.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#123591: May 26th 2016 at 8:58:59 AM

In political news, seems like a spending bill in the House just failed after a pro LGBT amendment got attached, the same whose close defeat in another vote short ago has got a number of Republican congresscritters in potential reelection trouble.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#123592: May 26th 2016 at 9:13:55 AM

Speaking of staying in the race, Clinton's lead in California has dropped inside the margin of error. Still not up to Sanders' miracle-needed 70% lead though.

LOS ANGELES — Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are locked in a tight race in California, the nation’s most populous state and one that until recently seemed strongly in Mrs. Clinton’s corner, a new statewide poll has found.

The poll, released Wednesday night by the Public Policy Institute of California, showed Mrs. Clinton leading Mr. Sanders among likely voters, 46 percent to 44 percent — within the margin of error. A survey by the organization in March found Mrs. Clinton with a lead of 48 percent to 41 percent over Mr. Sanders.

The survey came as both Mr. Sanders and Mrs. Clinton have stepped up their campaign appearances here in anticipation of the June 7 primary. Mr. Sanders, after initially saying he would not advertise on television here — California is one of the most expensive states for television advertising, given its size and the number of media markets — took to the airwaves this week.

And Mrs. Clinton has quickly responded, with ads set to begin running on Friday in the Los Angeles, Fresno and Sacramento markets: one narrated by the actor Morgan Freeman, another highlighting Mrs. Clinton’s endorsement by the civil rights activist Dolores Huerta. The Clinton campaign will also run Spanish-language ads aimed at Latino voters, and translated commercials in Cantonese, Mandarin, Vietnamese and Korean.

For Mrs. Clinton in particular, the ad buy is a significant reversal: Her campaign had halted its advertising after her decisive victories in the mid-Atlantic states on April 26, aside from a brief return to television in Kentucky.

Mr. Sanders’s aides said he intended to spend nearly all his time in California until the June 7 primary, a signal of how much importance he has attached to a victory here as he tries to keep his campaign going through the convention. His rallies have drawn big, enthusiastic crowds in many parts of the state.

Even with a loss in the primary, Mrs. Clinton would almost certainly win enough delegates to capture her party’s nomination. That said, a loss to Mr. Sanders in this state — which she won in 2008 and which Bill Clinton won in the 1992 primaries — would provide a sour and deflating end to her primary campaign.

It could also encourage Mr. Sanders to stay in the race through the Democratic National Convention in July, at a time when many Democrats would be asking him to step aside and join with Mrs. Clinton in turning the party’s attention to defeating the presumptive Republican nominee, Donald J. Trump.

The new poll takes into account both Democrats and independent voters who said they would vote in the Democratic primary. Among Democrats alone, Mrs. Clinton leads Mr. Sanders by 49 percent to 41 percent, according to the institute. But there has been a surge of people registering as independents, which Democrats say could be aiding Mr. Sanders.

The poll showed that both Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders would defeat Mr. Trump in a hypothetical November contest, though Mr. Sanders appears to have the stronger position at the moment. Mrs. Clinton is leading Mr. Trump among likely voters by 49 percent to 39 percent; Mr. Sanders would beat him 53 percent to 36 percent.

The poll was based on a telephone survey of 1,704 California adults taken from May 13 through Sunday. Of those, 996 were identified as likely voters. The margin of sampling error among that group was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

Alright, so 1) Bernie is still going strong, if not strong enough to win. 2) Clinton has God on her side, which explains all the lousy Republicans he told to run as a joke. 3) If Bernie wins, how many superdelegates will suddenly decide to switch sides?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#123593: May 26th 2016 at 10:43:54 AM

Sanders VS. Trump debate upcoming.

I await this with some trepidation.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#123594: May 26th 2016 at 11:09:33 AM

"Closer to reality" = "upcoming" - ?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#123595: May 26th 2016 at 11:29:15 AM

Trump said he was just kidding, apparently.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#123596: May 26th 2016 at 11:35:15 AM

He'll debate Sanders for ten million dollars, apparently. Jackass.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#123597: May 26th 2016 at 11:42:15 AM

[up] Sanders could still go ahead with the debate and threaten to empty-chair Trump...

Keep Rolling On
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#123598: May 26th 2016 at 12:00:58 PM

Because that went over so well when Clint Eastwood did it?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#123599: May 26th 2016 at 12:03:28 PM

Republicans loved it didn't they?

MAI742 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I-It's not like I like you, or anything!
#123600: May 26th 2016 at 12:05:09 PM

I'm Australian, so US politics is not something I understand very well.

I figured you here might know, but I was just talking to some folks from 'Dixieland' in an online game, and they kindly explained that they will vote for Trump because "he recognises the reality than white America is in a race war"? and that "white people" are "an endangered species" because of "multiculturalism". Apparently this was a question of "much more than skin", and indeed one of "civilization" itself. That I don't recognise "the danger" is apparently the product of "indoctrination" from my "liberal college professor". The whole thing was very, very odd. And we all performed terribly, because we were too busy typing messages.

TLDR: do many people in the USA still believe that the Aryan-Germanic races are uniquely gifted with intelligence and moral character, and that they must be preserved and strengthened? And if so, why? And why are they pinning their hopes on Trump? I mean, what exactly are they hoping he will do - lop all non-Germanic American citizens' cocks off?

edited 26th May '16 12:06:05 PM by MAI742

Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. — Mark Twain

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