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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123151: May 21st 2016 at 3:20:06 PM

[up]X4 There's a big difference between "isn't much better then Republicans" and "shouldn't be supported even when off against Republicans", that difference is what makes the #Bernie Or Bust movement.

[up]X3 I think there was some grumpiness over the way that Clinton has been about Russia, though honestly Shinra gives the "why US politicians are all idiots about Russia" speech better then I ever could.

edited 21st May '16 3:20:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123152: May 21st 2016 at 3:20:30 PM

[up][up] I'm not saying I agree with Marxist-Leninism. Far from it, despite being someone who could arguably be called a socialist.

@storyeller: Don't fool yourself; no country intervenes in a military conflict for anything other than selfish reasons; that's an inherent reality of geopolitics. Stopping atrocities is, at best, a secondary objective to the underlying calculus of realpolitik, and at worst a convenient Casus Belli to get the general population to support Imperialism without realizing it.

edited 21st May '16 3:24:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#123153: May 21st 2016 at 3:21:44 PM

[up][up]They also said they wouldn't vote for Clinton and wouldn't blame anyone else who didn't because she'd be just as bad as the Republicans, so yeah, it kind of is the same.

edited 21st May '16 3:23:08 PM by LSBK

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123154: May 21st 2016 at 3:25:53 PM

Why not in the primaries too?

Because the more delegates Sanders gets the easier a him he will have ensuring that the national Dem platform is a left-wing one, supporting things like a serious minimum wage increase.

I remember reading some comments on Reddit today

There's your problem. tongue

It's basically damned if you do, damned if you don't,

It's not, sure with some folks (the Russian and Chinease governments, the far left, the 'anti-imperialism' movement) it is, but with the majori of people it isn't. By and large nobody is pissed about Kosovo, Bosnia, Kuwait or East Timor, the people in many of those places are in fact still very thankful to the US for what it's done. Hell even Libya doesn't have that much outrage over it, especially not within Libya, the international far-left a much more upset about US actions in Libyan then the people of Libya, and in the end the Libyan people are the ones whose opinions matter.

Don't fool yourself; no country intervenes in a military conflict for anything other than selfish reasons;

Not always, in the end national governments are run by people, who may well do selfless action, or at least actions that they think are selfless. I hav no problem believing that Bush and Blair honestly meant to selflessly help the people of Iraq by invading, they just made a pig's ear of the entire thing and in Bush's case had strings being pulled by people with nefarious intentions.

Unless you go full "every action every person does is done for selfish reasons, because it's a personal benefit to be seen as a kind person", you can find selfless acts in international relations, they're rare and often have terrible after effects, but they are real.

[up] I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure if Lumi said he'd vote for Clinton if he was a US citizen, but not happily.

edited 21st May '16 3:31:04 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123155: May 21st 2016 at 3:30:46 PM

[up] Mind you I've heard the Serbs are quite pissed at us for the intervention, and I don't think anybody's polled the Libyans in years, and I assume with all the recent fighting their attitudes towards the US have hardened.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#123156: May 21st 2016 at 3:31:05 PM

I'm pissed at the US for the Balkans. Specifically, the cluster bombs and other antipersonnel persistent booby traps. So many of those still linger, unexploded, ready to kill unwary civilians.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123157: May 21st 2016 at 3:33:05 PM

[up][up]Yeah that's because we intervened against the Serbs, it's like asking the North Koreas opinion on the US intervention in the Korean War or the Iraqis opinions on the US protecting Kuwait. The aggressor isn't going to be happy about you stopping them slaughtering people.

As for Libya, I admit I don't think any polls have been done recently, but in general what anger there has been about post-intern edition abandonment has been aimed at Europe, not the US.

[up] Yeh but that's over the mistakes they made while doing it, unless you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and wish the IS hadn't intervened at all because of those mistakes you're not what we're talking about.

edited 21st May '16 3:34:23 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#123158: May 21st 2016 at 3:37:51 PM

I'm not sorry you guys bombed Serbia. I only wish you'd done it sooner, during the Bosnian War instead of waiting until things went south in Kosovo.

When one side of a war is building rape camps and conducting genocide, feel free to bomb them.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123159: May 21st 2016 at 3:39:45 PM

@silasaw: In any modern state, the economic elite invariably has influence on the decision making process that is greatly disproportionate to their share of the population. The degree to which the democratic process is dominated by the capitalist class varies between countries. As far as the first world the United States is pretty bad about this, insofar as only the opinions and political views of the top 1% of earners in the United States has a tangible impact on policy-making.

[up] Had the United States not stood to gain from their intervention in Serbia, they wouldn't have done shit. Just look at sub-Saharan Africa. In fact, the US would've happily backed the Serbs if they stood to gain more from doing so than the opposite.

edited 21st May '16 3:41:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#123160: May 21st 2016 at 3:41:35 PM

I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure if Lumi said he'd vote for Clinton if he was a US citizen, but not happily.

I remember the conversation, they explicitly said they'd just stay home and wouldn't begrudge anyone else who did. I was the one who asked in the first place.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#123161: May 21st 2016 at 3:42:25 PM

[up][up]Something being self-servingly good doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good. Very few nations help out other nations solely out of the kindness of their hearts (though it can play a factor).

edited 21st May '16 3:42:35 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123162: May 21st 2016 at 3:44:16 PM

[up][up][up] What exactly did we gain? A stable unified Yugoslavia would have been much easier to work with than eight different quarreling Balkan states. And while we might have worked with the Serbs if they served our interests, I doubt we would have let them build rape camps. Remember the Corats wanted to do many of the same things the Serbs did, and were restrained by the US and the Europeans.

edited 21st May '16 3:44:28 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123163: May 21st 2016 at 3:48:35 PM

[up] Yugoslavia, while the originator of the non-aligned movement, was ever so slightly more closely aligned with Russia than it was with NATO, and propping it up would be no guarantee of getting it to switch camps. With 8 separate nations came 8 separate chances to get Balkan nations in the United States' sphere of influence.

edited 21st May '16 3:49:58 PM by CaptainCapsase

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#123164: May 21st 2016 at 3:50:34 PM

[up] And then there was Albania, who aligned themselves with China rather than Russia.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#123165: May 21st 2016 at 3:52:17 PM

[up] I'm not saying geopolitics always goes as planned. In fact, it very frequently ends up going awry.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#123166: May 21st 2016 at 3:52:19 PM

And then Albania split with China shortly after.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123167: May 21st 2016 at 5:20:57 PM

I'm sure their regretting that now.[lol] At least they got some nice bunkers for it[lol]

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#123171: May 21st 2016 at 6:24:44 PM

[up][up][up] Well we could always dig a moat. We already have two of them. That would just leave the Canadian boarder. And after we dig a moat there America would no longer be a city on a hill. We would be a Castle on a hill on a lake, you know like in Monty Python and the Holly Grail.

[up][up] Well the rate of Palestinian terrorism did go down after the wall went up....

[up] And they say Trump's the only tough candidate. Honestly if Hillary did more things like this she would be polling much better.

edited 21st May '16 6:26:41 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#123172: May 21st 2016 at 6:45:05 PM

[up][up][up]And East Berlin, for keeping people from escaping...

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#123173: May 21st 2016 at 6:48:25 PM

[up] I mean it worked pretty well until it came crumbling down.

The armed watchtowers probably helped.

Bernie Sanders is giving his support to Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz's primary opponent amid tensions with her and the DNC.

Sanders also said if elected president, he would effectively terminate her chairmanship of the DNC.

edited 21st May '16 7:21:00 PM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#123174: May 21st 2016 at 7:24:21 PM

I wonder if at some point the Clinton campaign are going to realise that the best way to lock Sanders' voters in is going to be to remove DWS. It would give Sanders a victory on which to end his candidacy and fall in behind Clinton and it would solidify Clinton as someon whose not in the pocket of big money.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#123175: May 21st 2016 at 7:32:07 PM

Does Clinton have enough political capital to spare to quietly shove DWS out before November? Maybe Obama would be the better one to do it, as he doesn't have to worry about pissing off the DNC?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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