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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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I'm not saying I agree with Marxist-Leninism. Far from it, despite being someone who could arguably be called a socialist.
@storyeller: Don't fool yourself; no country intervenes in a military conflict for anything other than selfish reasons; that's an inherent reality of geopolitics. Stopping atrocities is, at best, a secondary objective to the underlying calculus of realpolitik, and at worst a convenient Casus Belli to get the general population to support Imperialism without realizing it.
edited 21st May '16 3:24:11 PM by CaptainCapsase
Because the more delegates Sanders gets the easier a him he will have ensuring that the national Dem platform is a left-wing one, supporting things like a serious minimum wage increase.
There's your problem.
It's not, sure with some folks (the Russian and Chinease governments, the far left, the 'anti-imperialism' movement) it is, but with the majori of people it isn't. By and large nobody is pissed about Kosovo, Bosnia, Kuwait or East Timor, the people in many of those places are in fact still very thankful to the US for what it's done. Hell even Libya doesn't have that much outrage over it, especially not within Libya, the international far-left a much more upset about US actions in Libyan then the people of Libya, and in the end the Libyan people are the ones whose opinions matter.
Not always, in the end national governments are run by people, who may well do selfless action, or at least actions that they think are selfless. I hav no problem believing that Bush and Blair honestly meant to selflessly help the people of Iraq by invading, they just made a pig's ear of the entire thing and in Bush's case had strings being pulled by people with nefarious intentions.
Unless you go full "every action every person does is done for selfish reasons, because it's a personal benefit to be seen as a kind person", you can find selfless acts in international relations, they're rare and often have terrible after effects, but they are real.
I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure if Lumi said he'd vote for Clinton if he was a US citizen, but not happily.
edited 21st May '16 3:31:04 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI'm pissed at the US for the Balkans. Specifically, the cluster bombs and other antipersonnel persistent booby traps. So many of those still linger, unexploded, ready to kill unwary civilians.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.![]()
Yeah that's because we intervened against the Serbs, it's like asking the North Koreas opinion on the US intervention in the Korean War or the Iraqis opinions on the US protecting Kuwait. The aggressor isn't going to be happy about you stopping them slaughtering people.
As for Libya, I admit I don't think any polls have been done recently, but in general what anger there has been about post-intern edition abandonment has been aimed at Europe, not the US.
Yeh but that's over the mistakes they made while doing it, unless you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and wish the IS hadn't intervened at all because of those mistakes you're not what we're talking about.
edited 21st May '16 3:34:23 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran@silasaw: In any modern state, the economic elite invariably has influence on the decision making process that is greatly disproportionate to their share of the population. The degree to which the democratic process is dominated by the capitalist class varies between countries. As far as the first world the United States is pretty bad about this, insofar as only the opinions and political views of the top 1% of earners in the United States has a tangible impact on policy-making.
Had the United States not stood to gain from their intervention in Serbia, they wouldn't have done shit. Just look at sub-Saharan Africa. In fact, the US would've happily backed the Serbs if they stood to gain more from doing so than the opposite.
edited 21st May '16 3:41:16 PM by CaptainCapsase
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Something being self-servingly good doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good. Very few nations help out other nations solely out of the kindness of their hearts (though it can play a factor).
edited 21st May '16 3:42:35 PM by Protagonist506
Leviticus 19:34![]()
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What exactly did we gain? A stable unified Yugoslavia would have been much easier to work with than eight different quarreling Balkan states. And while we might have worked with the Serbs if they served our interests, I doubt we would have let them build rape camps. Remember the Corats wanted to do many of the same things the Serbs did, and were restrained by the US and the Europeans.
edited 21st May '16 3:44:28 PM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Yugoslavia, while the originator of the non-aligned movement, was ever so slightly more closely aligned with Russia than it was with NATO, and propping it up would be no guarantee of getting it to switch camps. With 8 separate nations came 8 separate chances to get Balkan nations in the United States' sphere of influence.
edited 21st May '16 3:49:58 PM by CaptainCapsase
Not to mention building a wall worked out SO well for Israel and Palestine...
edited 21st May '16 6:14:51 PM by Bat178
It's hard to call yourself a dove when you say stuff like this.
In other news:
edited 21st May '16 6:24:44 PM by Demonic_Braeburn
Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.![]()
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Well we could always dig a moat. We already have two of them. That would just leave the Canadian boarder. And after we dig a moat there America would no longer be a city on a hill. We would be a Castle on a hill on a lake, you know like in Monty Python and the Holly Grail.
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Well the rate of Palestinian terrorism did go down after the wall went up....
And they say Trump's the only tough candidate. Honestly if Hillary did more things like this she would be polling much better.
edited 21st May '16 6:26:41 PM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
I mean it worked pretty well until it came crumbling down.
The armed watchtowers probably helped.
Sanders also said if elected president, he would effectively terminate her chairmanship of the DNC.
edited 21st May '16 7:21:00 PM by Demonic_Braeburn
Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.I wonder if at some point the Clinton campaign are going to realise that the best way to lock Sanders' voters in is going to be to remove DWS. It would give Sanders a victory on which to end his candidacy and fall in behind Clinton and it would solidify Clinton as someon whose not in the pocket of big money.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

edited 21st May '16 3:20:35 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran