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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#122901: May 19th 2016 at 6:10:52 AM

That bundling method was Sanders' way of getting stuff passed, but damn if it isn't fucked up in general principle.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122902: May 19th 2016 at 6:23:19 AM

[up] Yeah, I'm not saying Sanders was above using that method himself, just that in that scenario, his hands were tied. That more or less applies to Clinton as well, as the first lady, she couldn't not endorse a bill her husband was signing off on, but she didn't have to be as enthusiastic about it as she was.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122903: May 19th 2016 at 6:28:57 AM

Again, she's admitted to that being a mistake so it's not like she's doubling down on a previous statement, Capsase. She's agreeing with you. You should probably let that go. The horse is dying.

As for bundling: That's actually part of how we get a lot of really bad stuff passed. It gets put in with stuff that's unrelated. We don't have line voting in Congress, which would let them vote on individual things within a bill, and unless they decide to change that they need to make it so that you can't bundle together unrelated things. One of those two things.

edited 19th May '16 6:29:23 AM by AceofSpades

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122904: May 19th 2016 at 6:31:14 AM

[up] I know, and it's an apology I'm willing to accept, unlike her vote for the Iraq war.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#122905: May 19th 2016 at 6:49:15 AM

I really hate the "they made a mistake once, burn them!" attitude in politics. That's how you get people doubling down on stupid shit, because admitting that you were wrong is worse for your political image than continuing a stupid policy.

People make mistakes. I'd rather have someone admit it and move past it than not. Supporting the Iraq war was a mistake and I'd be suspicious of anyone who doesn't admit that now — but that's with the benefit of hindsight, and at the time things were much less clear, to put it mildly.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#122906: May 19th 2016 at 6:50:33 AM

Yeah think how often you make a mistake or wrong call at your job, politicians do the same, they're just playing with bigger toys then the rest of us.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122907: May 19th 2016 at 7:02:10 AM

[up][up] I'd say I'm willing to forgive a fair bit, but as I said a few pages back, even without hindsight, the Iraq war was clearly illegal. If congress had refused to give Bush authorization to declare the war until the UN signed off on it, and it still had the same end result, I'd be willing to forgive the congresspeople who voted in favor of it under those circumstances.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122908: May 19th 2016 at 7:14:29 AM

There are lots of people who don't trust the UN in such matters, and sometimes with good reasons. The main problem with the Iraq war was that it was based on fabricated reasons and the after-invasion management was poor.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122909: May 19th 2016 at 7:16:52 AM

It's patently clear TO YOU, and not actually to a lot of other people. And the president can't declare war, that's solely a power of Congress. The president can make the announcement, I think.

Anyway, part of the issue is that the UN, as great as it is as a platform for countries to meet and discuss things, it doesn't actually have the kind of authorities that countries respect. We can argue the legality of anything, but the UN isn't actually a world power with the ability to enforce laws on sovereign countries. The member states can't even seem to decide what organization within the UN has the power to enforce or declare a war illegal.

Part of being a power is that people listen to you before doing a thing; the UN frequently gets ignored and doesn't have any official authority. And a lot of the member states would freak out if it did.

[up]That has largely been accepted as fact in the US, though there's a lot of people who still believe there were WM Ds over there.

edited 19th May '16 7:18:21 AM by AceofSpades

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122910: May 19th 2016 at 7:17:44 AM

It is reasonable to demand that the perpetrators of the Iraq war — the ones who lied to the public in order to get it approved — should be prosecuted. But let's not go so far as to attack every member of Congress who voted in good faith, assuming that the Bush administration's information was true.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#122911: May 19th 2016 at 7:28:20 AM

Assuming that they voted in good faith is an excessive usage of Hanlon's Razor, I feel.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#122912: May 19th 2016 at 7:29:45 AM

I'm starting to get worried about Sanders supporters giving the nomination to Trump by writing Bernie in. A fair amount of my friends support him and they point blank refuse to support Hillary. I figured this would fade over time but it doesn't seem to be doing so. I also thought it would get better when Sanders endorsed Hillary after losing but he's being such a sore loser I don't know if he will.

edited 19th May '16 7:30:07 AM by Kostya

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122913: May 19th 2016 at 7:35:38 AM

Look, people have pointed out that Clinton went in for the long haul too and then endorsed Obama when she definitively lost at the convention. And to do a mass write in vote would require a whole lot of people to do that.

I still think Trump has a lot of distaste in the general public's opinion.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122914: May 19th 2016 at 7:39:34 AM

[up][up][up] Some did and some did not. However, we have this rule of jurisprudence called "innocent until proven guilty". It is fair to call Clinton's judgment into question regarding the Iraq war vote. It is disingenuous to ignore that she later changed her mind. It is absurd to insist that she be prosecuted in the absence of any evidence that she was colluding to send America to war on false pretenses.

edited 19th May '16 7:40:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#122915: May 19th 2016 at 7:40:05 AM

He does but if even five percent of Democrats vote for Bernie that could be enough to cripple Hillary.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#122916: May 19th 2016 at 7:44:23 AM

Are we assuming that Bernie will run as an independent if he doesn't get the Democratic nomination? I'm kind of lost here.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#122917: May 19th 2016 at 7:47:08 AM

No but I'm concerned he won't tell his supporters to back Hillary. That's about the only thing he can do now to get some of them to realize the dream is dead and we need to be realistic.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#122918: May 19th 2016 at 7:47:30 AM

They think people will vote him in no matter what he says, enough to sabotage the Hil.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122920: May 19th 2016 at 8:27:54 AM

Of course. Because Title IX is being used to deny states educational funding when they don't comply with federal gender equality rules. I'd like to say that's going to go nowhere, but we have a divided SCOTUS. -_-

edited 19th May '16 8:30:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#122921: May 19th 2016 at 8:56:40 AM

Sanders will endorse Clinton come the convention/after it, if he doesn't then you can worry, but until then it's a hypothetical with no real evidence to support it. In the end he's already made it clear that he'd rather Clinton then any Republican.

edited 19th May '16 8:57:19 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122922: May 19th 2016 at 8:58:42 AM

In support of that notion, it's been said that the 2008 primaries were a lot more unfriendly than this one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#122923: May 19th 2016 at 8:59:35 AM

Found this on my Facebook feed.

With the tone of outrage you can hear throughout, it sounds significant.

"A place where legislators and corporate lobbyists have an equal vote"? So a place where people who have the money make the laws?

And that law that "prevents many asbestos victims from suing corporations"? Seriously?

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#122924: May 19th 2016 at 9:04:12 AM

And in other WTF news, Louisiana state Representative Kenneth Havard (R-Jackson) proposed and then pulled a bill which would've required strippers to be within the ages of 21 and 28 and weigh no more than 160 lbs.

edited 19th May '16 9:04:33 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#122925: May 19th 2016 at 9:28:12 AM

[up] That's, uh....well I think everyone knows what his tastes are now.


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