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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122851: May 18th 2016 at 6:18:49 PM

I'd just like to see some proof that every congressperson should have somehow suspected the information they had was false.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122852: May 18th 2016 at 6:18:53 PM

[up][up][up] Were it feasible to do so, I would love to see that happen.

edited 18th May '16 6:19:05 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122853: May 18th 2016 at 6:20:11 PM

[up]And then we'll arrest Sanders for wrongful imprisonment, since he voted for the 1994 Crime Bill. Right? And gross negligence and disregard for human life since he supported that nuclear waste shipment too.

edited 18th May '16 6:21:12 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122854: May 18th 2016 at 6:20:58 PM

[up] Sure, and the entire congress is executed in mass as the glorious revolutionary army storms the capital to cast out the capitalist pigs. tongue

edited 18th May '16 6:21:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122855: May 18th 2016 at 6:21:53 PM

[up]Like I said, you wanna play this game, ultimately you're going to have everyone in congress locked up for the negative side effects of bills they supported.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122856: May 18th 2016 at 6:22:26 PM

[up] Only the ones who were party to crimes against humanity. (which is exactly what an illegal war of aggression is)

That wouldn't require locking up all of congress, only most of them.

edited 18th May '16 6:23:34 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122857: May 18th 2016 at 6:23:33 PM

Capsase, that's not actually an answer and you know it. If you want to go around claiming Clinton is a criminal (and again, voting for an invasion is not actually a crime) then you're gonna get some pushback for some actual proof beyond she made a vote when she was a Senator.

Which, again, she has admitted to being a mistake.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122858: May 18th 2016 at 6:26:42 PM

[up][up]Like I said, under this logic we could lock Sanders up for gross negligence and disregard for human life given his willingness to support the construction of an unsafe storage facility and his refusal to even inspect the site of it. We never would, because that would be stupid, but following your train of logic we could.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122859: May 18th 2016 at 6:30:26 PM

[up] My train of logic considers being party to a war that was illegal* even under George Bush's claimed Casus Belli and which resulted in around a million deaths, about 100,000 of which can be directly attributed to the actions of the US military during the invasion, as a crime of a different magnitude than what Sanders did.

* Or rather it would be if the United States wasn't on the UN security council; under the UN Charter any declaration of war that is not sanctioned by the UN is by definition illegal. That the security council is responsible for enforcing that is the only reason the US didn't face any consequences for the war.

edited 18th May '16 6:32:05 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122860: May 18th 2016 at 6:31:48 PM

[up]I would respond by noting that Clinton was one of a massive number of people who voted for said war, while Sanders was the mover and shaker behind the nuclear storage thing. He has far more responsibility for his "crime" than she has for hers.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#122861: May 18th 2016 at 6:33:14 PM

My first thought was "it's a shame that this is what's going to lead to the downfall of civilization", but then I realized that that was stupid.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122862: May 18th 2016 at 6:35:01 PM

Civilization as it currently stands is actually a lot more stable than this thread gives the impression of.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122863: May 18th 2016 at 6:38:58 PM

@Ambar: We're at an impasse, so let's get in our last words and drop this; given that war was declared against Iraq in violation of the UN charter, it was illegal in spite of Bush's claimed Casus Belli. It doesn't matter whether they bought the claims about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction; every one of the congresspeople who voted in favor of war is party to a crime against humanity. It doesn't matter what their intentions were, given the sheer number of people who died because of their actions; some things simply cannot be forgiven, and for me, this is one of them.

[up][up] Right now it is, but the latter half of the 21st century is looking quite grim, and as far as the US goes, its currently trending down in stability according to the fragile state index, though it's still in the third most stable category. (stable)

edited 18th May '16 6:45:31 PM by CaptainCapsase

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#122864: May 18th 2016 at 6:40:14 PM

Really?

(that's not a sarcastic "really")

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#122866: May 18th 2016 at 6:41:05 PM

@Ambar: You do realize that a lot of tropers present would not really object to throwing Congress as a whole in jail, right?

@Captain Capsase: Personally, for Iraq specifically, my only objection to the war was that it was forced through by a campaign of lies and threats while we were already in a war elsewhere and we wrecked our military readiness doing so. There's reasonable doubt that anyone in Congress knew that Saddam was not stockpiling illegal WMDs, and hey, the President said it so it must be true.

I would have approved of a properly-organized and planned invasion and overthrow of Saddam Hussein based on his many crimes against humanity - I've repeatedly said before that stopping such crimes is an entirely legitimate casus belli and an excuse for overthrowing a nation's government. (I would not require UN approval for this, because the UN has no authority over five specific nations, one of which is the US - blame Stalin and the atomic bomb for that.)

edited 18th May '16 6:48:11 PM by Ramidel

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122867: May 18th 2016 at 6:42:16 PM

[up]As long as they have the courage of their convictions, I'm fine with it.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122868: May 18th 2016 at 6:46:52 PM

What is that map even supposed to mean? You didn't even explain how it pertains to the future of the US, which is on the more stable list anyway which suggest that yeah, we're actually in a relatively good spot. There's little to explain that map and the numbers.

[up][up]Aside of practicality, they'd have to prove a crime was indeed committed.

edited 18th May '16 6:47:55 PM by AceofSpades

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122869: May 18th 2016 at 6:48:21 PM

[up] http://library.fundforpeace.org/library/fragilestatesindex-2015.pdf (that's the detailed report)

Sorry, I assumed you'd be able to navigate the site relatively easily; that's the detailed explanation of why particular countries are ranked as they are, and details about how things are changing over time. The US is trending slightly downwards, along with the rest of the west. In fact, most of the world is trending downwards atm, with a few exceptions. There's a long way to go before the US slides down into the next category. Under no circumstances do I consider it acceptable for a nation to unilaterally declare war in our modern world.

@Ramidel: I did mention the caveat of the US being exempt from needing the UN's approval by virtue of being on the security council, which I personally disagree with. If it was any other nation who'd done that, they'd be heavily sanctioned and diplomatically isolated. Rather like what happened to Russia after they annexing Crimea.

edited 18th May '16 6:54:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#122870: May 18th 2016 at 6:53:57 PM

I find most maps like that aren't easy to read, they're just maps on pages with very little explanation that assume whoever's viewing them understands the information.

Basically they need maps for idiots.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122871: May 18th 2016 at 6:56:58 PM

[up] The detailed report has a full explanation of each country's ranking. In the US case, stability is trending downwards. One indicator of which is the rise of demagogues. Which is to say Donald Trump.

As far as why I said the latter half of the 21st century is looking grim...

Well, climate change alone is reason enough to say that; we are not doing nearly enough now to avert catastrophe. Add to that the fact that we're poised to be heading into a major economic transition midway through the 21st century (automation and artificial intelligence), and the fact that we'll be hitting peak oil in the 2050s at current consumption trends...

edited 18th May '16 7:00:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#122875: May 18th 2016 at 7:40:15 PM

Or rather it would be if the United States wasn't on the UN security council; under the UN Charter any declaration of war that is not sanctioned by the UN is by definition illegal. That the security council is responsible for enforcing that is the only reason the US didn't face any consequences for the war.

Bollocks. Yes a war of aggression is illegal under the UN rules, do you know how many times the UN has managed to agree on what counts as a war of aggression on a scale that people should be convicted of war crimes for waging it? Once. World War 2, that's literally the only time that provision of the UN charter has lead to criminal charges, the US being on the security council means that there weren't sanctions, condemnation or possibly even a UN lead pushback but even then it wouldn't have been tried under the UN charter for waging a war of aggression, because nobody has been tried under that since the Nazis.

Nobody gets convicted for crimes against peace, not North Korea, not Saddam, not Argantina, nobody.

Edit: To further clarify, countries do get done for acts of aggression (which can include invasions and attacks) but in international law that's not the same as a war of aggression, a war of aggression/crime against peace is a super special thing that we've only been able to agree on as having occurred with WW 2.

I would have approved of a properly-organized and planned invasion and overthrow of Saddam Hussein based on his many crimes against humanity - I've repeatedly said before that stopping such crimes is an entirely legitimate casus belli and an excuse for overthrowing a nation's government.

It's considered a bit of a shit mood to overthrow someone for crimes against humanity after the fact. You do it when they're committing the crimes, you don't let them commit the crimes because you don't care then years later go "actually we'd like to overthrow you, so we're gonna do that now". Saddam would have had to have been committing fresh crimes for the US to have a legal leg to stand on.

Oh and the UN does have the right to tell the P5 what to do, outside of very special provisions (as used during the Suez crisis) it physically can't without that country okaying it, but it still has the legal right to.

edited 18th May '16 7:50:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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