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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122451: May 15th 2016 at 12:27:24 PM

It prevents members of the opposing party from gaming your candidate selection. It's been done a few times in the past.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#122452: May 15th 2016 at 12:28:28 PM

It stops republicans or democrats from fucking with the other party's primary. It ensures members of that party get to have the candidate they feel best represents their views.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122453: May 15th 2016 at 12:28:32 PM

[up], [up][up] Bullshit; the 5th column voters are as much of a myth as voter fraud, except on local scales; note that when I say open, I mean "you can only vote for one party" open, not "you can vote in both".

edited 15th May '16 12:30:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#122454: May 15th 2016 at 12:29:46 PM

If you can't prove it's hard to actual register for a party than your point falls apart. As are as I know, there's nothing stopping someone from registering for one, voting, and then opting out if they want.

That being said, it really shouldn't be that hard to understand why only wanting people in the party to vote on it's nomination is a thing.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122455: May 15th 2016 at 12:31:38 PM

Nope.

Thad Cochran in Missisippi won his renomination in 2014 in large parts thanks to Democrats voting in the Republican primary, where he had been primaried for being too moderate. Without their support he would probably have lost.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122456: May 15th 2016 at 12:32:45 PM

Fine, I concede this particular point*, but the fact remains that our overall political system is designed in a way which causes it to alternate between obscenely undemocratic or obscenely rigid (depending on the political situation at the time) for no readily apparent reason other than maintaining the power of the political elite.

* At least insofar as fifth column voters can be a problem. Though I have a feeling that primary was one that allowed voters to vote in both of the primaries, which I would agree is a bad idea; you should have to pick between one or the other.

edited 15th May '16 12:40:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#122457: May 15th 2016 at 12:52:07 PM

Actually, I don't think so - it was black Democrats voting in the Republican (instead of Democratic) primary for a moderate Republican over the local Tea Party because they knew that the Democrats couldn't win in that district.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#122458: May 15th 2016 at 1:29:11 PM

It's not bad as long as it's our guys doing it for the good cause. I'm half-joking.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122459: May 15th 2016 at 1:31:59 PM

Granted: There is no adequate reason why all citizens should not be automatically registered to vote as soon they reach voting age. There is also no adequate reason why changing one's affiliation prior to a primary should be a difficult process. However, it is disingenuous to claim the outcome of the primary election as illegitimate merely because the guy you like lost, when the rules were known in advance to all parties.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122460: May 15th 2016 at 1:35:27 PM

[up] Whose to say I haven't complained about this before this election? I haven't really posted in the US politics thread prior to this cycle, but I haven't been totally uninvolved in the political process.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122461: May 15th 2016 at 1:38:40 PM

The motives of independents are always suspect, and if they don't want to call themselves Democrats, they have no business being involved in a Democratic primary. If they have already refused to affiliate, they obviously do not agree with the party platform, and therefore I wonder how much an attempt at electoral subversion factors into their motives.

edited 15th May '16 1:39:21 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122462: May 15th 2016 at 1:41:15 PM

[up] The democrats have no business having a monopoly on "left" wing politics in the United States either; the reason there's so many unaffiliated voters in the United States is the fact that our system by design makes it more or less impossible to have more than two parties, meaning a very large portion of the political spectrum is effectively disenfranchised.

edited 15th May '16 1:42:04 PM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122463: May 15th 2016 at 1:46:47 PM

Having dozens of viable parties won't help anything, and it results in catastrophe for the left, which needs an iron fist guiding it to electoral success. They're not fucking disenfranchised — their oddball views and candidates don't have mass appeal, or, for that matter, not enough mass appeal to produce a decisive victory. We need to fucking win, not hold the hand of every insurgent leftist who's more interested in quarreling.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122464: May 15th 2016 at 1:48:49 PM

[up] A multiparty system inevitably results in left-right coalitions, and thus quite a bit more cooperation since there's fewer arguments about how parties should be run, along with the possibility of parties crossing coalition lines on particular issues.

edited 15th May '16 1:49:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122465: May 15th 2016 at 1:51:50 PM

[up]Yes, in a country where the "center" is vaguely center-left. In a country where the conservatives are mostly just upper-class rich twits, rather than corporate sociopaths and religious nut jobs. In a country that isn't a culture war tinderbox. A country where there aren't generational implications for every election liberals lose. In America, where one half of the political spectrum is just pure cancer, it's a laughable conceit to even suggest that the solution to all our problems is to fragment the Left into multiple parties. Do you want the Republicans to win every election ever, or something? Because your opinion just seems really divorced from reality.

edited 15th May '16 1:54:45 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122466: May 15th 2016 at 1:53:25 PM

Please consider also that a lot of "independents" have a clear political slant towards one party.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122467: May 15th 2016 at 1:53:55 PM

[up][up] Which is why all of the European nations using parliamentary systems are run by right wing ultraconservatives, amirite? You're reversing the cause and effect, I'm afraid; America's backwards political system is precisely why our left is so easily fragmented compared to the right.

[up] Yes, but not enough o consider the party agreeable, otherwise they'd be registered as such.

edited 15th May '16 1:55:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#122468: May 15th 2016 at 1:54:33 PM

and if they don't want to call themselves Democrats, they have no business being involved in a Democratic primary.

They're already involved, they're paying for it after all.

Now personally I think that that's what has to change, the public needs to stop paying for the Democrat and Republican primaries, because they should be private organisations doing it themselves.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122469: May 15th 2016 at 1:55:59 PM

"Which is why all of the European nations using parliamentary systems are run by right wing ultraconservatives, amirite?"

The political spectrum in Europe is way different than in America. Don't keep looking to Europe. That's a losing proposition. We'll never be like them, not in our lifetimes.

" Yes, but not enough o consider the party agreeable, otherwise they'd be registered as such."

I don't think it's a political disagreement, but a cultural aversion to collective affiliation. Americans are leery of anything that forces them to adopt a label, which, in my opinion, is patently ridiculous.

edited 15th May '16 1:57:31 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122470: May 15th 2016 at 1:56:45 PM

And the rise of Trump...?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122471: May 15th 2016 at 1:59:08 PM

"You're reversing the cause and effect, I'm afraid; America's backwards political system is precisely why our left is so easily fragmented compared to the right."

Our "backwards political system" is the only reason the American left has any victories to call their own at all.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122472: May 15th 2016 at 2:00:06 PM

[up] There is no politically potent left in America; the democrats are center-right, and the GOP is ultraconservative in terms of its base, vanilla right in terms of its political elite.

edited 15th May '16 2:01:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122473: May 15th 2016 at 2:01:14 PM

The Democrats are centre-right ... ?

Well, that tall tale arises again. No, their political prescriptions are overwhelmingly left.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#122474: May 15th 2016 at 2:01:16 PM

The whole "the two parties are basically the same" meme more or less has to hold true in order to avoid deadlocks in our system
No, it doesn't. There have been wide gaps between the parties for far longer than the system has been gridlocked. What's gone on in the past is that they either negotiate from their respective positions to a middle ground that both sides can support, or else the minority party let the majority party get their way for now, knowing that when the situation is reversed and they become the majority, the new minority party will do the same for them.

The gridlock we're currently experiencing doesn't come from the two parties having different policy positions, it's from one party labelling anything supported by the other axiomatically bad and fighting it tooth and nail, regardless of the bridges they're burning by doing so. That's a new think that, in a nutshell, comes from the dixiecrat wing of the Republican party (which the Republicans rely on for votes, but have been doing nothing to actually appease for quite some time) rebelling against the party leadership and demanding a "no moderation, no compromise" approach to governance.

What will happen is that they'll continue to accomplish nothing except obstructionism, which will continue to drive away everyone else from their position, and they'll eventually make themselves irrelevant as the entire rest of the electorate unites against them. The only question is how long this process will take. Will the movement dissolve after Trump crashes and burns? Will they struggle on afterwards? On the extreme end, they could concievably drag the entire Republican party down with them, agitating until the Democrats become so dominant that they fracture under their own weight and we end up with two new parties: a leftist party (ie, Bernie and his supporters) and a center-left party (ie, Clinton and her supporters) instead of a center-left and far right (Obama vs Tea Party) or a center-left vs center-right (traditional Democrats vs traditional Republicans).

That said, I'm not saying I think the two-party system is the best way to do things. I'd love to see more parties that work together in broader coalitions, rather than the big-tent stuff we have now. It would allow more granularity in politics — the progressive leftists could work together with libertarians on social issues and the religious right on economic issues, instead of both of the latter being Republicans and therefore having to toe the party line against the Democratic progressives, for example. But in order to do that, we'd have to change our voting system away from first past the post — which there's essentially no political will to do, so it ain't happening any time soon.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122475: May 15th 2016 at 2:02:07 PM

[up][up] Platforms are, but policy has been fairly centrist at best.

[up] The extreme polarization of modern American politics is fairly recent, was initially confined to the bases of the parties rather than its leadership, its spread into a large portion of the GOP's leadership, hence the deadlock only emerging during Obama's presidency.

edited 15th May '16 2:06:43 PM by CaptainCapsase


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