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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#122276: May 13th 2016 at 9:58:45 AM

[up][up]I think a lot of people would disagree with that last statement.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122277: May 13th 2016 at 10:01:00 AM

[up][up] In terms of specific legislature, what do you propose beyond what has currently been implemented to further improve civil rights issues, to bring the topic back to politics.

edited 13th May '16 10:03:54 AM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#122278: May 13th 2016 at 10:08:27 AM

Ideally economic and social issues should be addressed simultaneously, however it's often been the case that social issues have blocked broader economic issues from being meaningfully addressed, racism being probably single greatest precipitator of this.

[up]Major criminal justice reform is the most obvious first step. Things like decriminalizing certain drug offenses, greater police oversight, etc.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122279: May 13th 2016 at 10:12:02 AM

[up] I'm not sure you can call that exclusively a race issue; police officers shoot a ton of unarmed people of all races in America, and the prison population is absolutely massive regardless of the demographic you are looking at. blacks are harmed by this system disproportionately to their share of the population, but it's not what I'd call an exclusively racial issue.

Perhaps this makes this whole discussion a matter of semantics though; in addition to that I would argue for redistribution policies targeted at improving the economic mobility of the poorest Americans, which is another area where blacks are affected at rates far exceeding their proportion of the population.

edited 13th May '16 10:14:23 AM by CaptainCapsase

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#122280: May 13th 2016 at 10:12:55 AM

[up][up]

Major criminal justice reform is the most obvious first step. Things like decriminalizing certain drug offenses, greater police oversight, etc.

...and maybe merging all the Police forces in a State into a single force?

edited 13th May '16 10:13:06 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#122281: May 13th 2016 at 10:14:04 AM

Dude, it's very much a race issue. So many laws and police practices are about race. This nation is built on race issues.

Oh really when?
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#122283: May 13th 2016 at 10:24:36 AM

[up][up][up][up]While it may technically effect everyone the ones most disproportionately effected are minorities.

Many sorts of "tough on crime" measures are passed on the grounds of "dog whistles" and other forms of subtle and implicit racism. Let's not forget who the common image of the "low-life scum", and "super-predators" are.

[up][up][up]In some cases I imagine that that would make the problem worse, particularly in some of the Deep South. It's also something that would be politically very difficult to accomplish.

I would actually prefer greater federal involvement in these sorts of things, but that is likely even more politically untenable.

[up]You can probably role all that up into White Upper class privilege if you wish.

edited 13th May '16 10:25:52 AM by Mio

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122284: May 13th 2016 at 10:39:13 AM

[up] Which is precisely what I said; "pure" race issues* no longer exist in the realm of law, and outside of attempts at positive discrimination or targeted resistribution of wealth, legislature that improves the lives of minorities will tend to also improve the lives of non-minorities in similar economic circumstances.

* Such as slavery, segregation, and legislature that specifically discriminated against blacks.

Hence my speculation that this discussion is mostly a matter of semantics.

edited 13th May '16 10:44:47 AM by CaptainCapsase

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
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#122285: May 13th 2016 at 10:39:41 AM

On Republicans not having a safe nominee, actually they did from what the Republican members of my family have said. They were happy if either Trump or Cruz won and only worried that Marco Rubio might win. It was safe in so far as they didn't care if Cruz won over Trump or if Trump won over Cruz.

Also as a Bernie supporter, I do think the superdelegate system is inherently undemocratic. That being said, Hillary will win her nomination fair and square since her pledged delegates outnumber Sanders'.

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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122286: May 13th 2016 at 10:43:51 AM

[up] Fair in a system that by design suppresses political views even slightly outside of the Overton window when it's working properly, but yes, I'm not disputing that Clinton's won the nomination according to the pre-established rules for the primaries.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#122287: May 13th 2016 at 10:45:53 AM

Just because a law doesn't mention minorities by name doesn't mean it's not specifically designed to target minorities.

The Three Strikes laws for example.

Oh really when?
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#122288: May 13th 2016 at 10:46:40 AM

@ Mio:

You can probably role all that up into White Upper class privilege if you wish.

The existence of the USA is due to White Upper class privilege? surprised

Keep Rolling On
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#122289: May 13th 2016 at 10:48:03 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]They may not technically be pure race issues, but they are treated as such given who is effected most by those issues, who advocates against those issues, who pushes back on those issues, and just generally how they are framed. And of course this all goes beyond just specifically racism against Blacks.

[up]Well who else was going to benefit the most from not having to take orders from Parliament?

Though admittedly I'm not sure if those were the best words to use.

[down]I thought it was more slave traders then owners? Then again I guess that is largely semantic.

edited 13th May '16 11:24:21 AM by Mio

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#122290: May 13th 2016 at 10:49:01 AM

[up][up]Actually the revolution was started by white slaveowners who were pissed about paying taxes to fund a war that happened in their back yard.

Sooo maybe?

Oh really when?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#122291: May 13th 2016 at 10:50:17 AM

And if you don't fall into the extremely narrow ideological band permitted under the two party system than what? The way our system works makes third parties completely non-viable in most cases, and while that would be alright if the parties functioned like the multi-party coalitions seen in parlimentary democracies, that's pretty clearly not the case; control over the parties is far, far more centralized than in your typical coalition.
This isn't really the case — both parties are extremely broad and include several subgroups that tolerate each other with varying levels of grace. Republicans include the religious right (staunchly conservative on social issues, generally willing to be progressive on economic issues), the big business crowd (want lower taxes and relaxed government regulation, don't care about anything else), the libertarians (want smaller government in general, meaning they're largely progressive on social issues but conservative on economic issues), and the dixiecrats (people who like government programs that benefit them, but are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face if it means keeping their tax money from helping those people). Democrats include social progressives (who want to see things like a stronger social safety net and increased government spending on services), the religious left (who, like the religious right, are generally socially conservative and economically liberal, but who put more importance on economic issues than social issues — they're also largely minorities, and therefore get run out of the GOP by the dixiecrats), and the environmentalists (who want to fight global warming, impose stricter pollution controls, etc).

The only thing that would force you to go third party is if you refuse to compromise with the other factions in your party of choice.

And to say "Sanders is only losing because Clinton won the Deep South" is an incredibly idiotic statement. The Democrats in that part of the country are not some alien group who need to be run out of the party.
It's also not even true. Clinton has won plenty of states that aren't in the South at all, much less part of the Deep South (which is traditionally defined as Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana, for the record).

blacks are harmed by this system disproportionately to their share of the population, but it's not what I'd call an exclusively racial issue
That's literally the definition of a racial issue. That isn't not "exclusively" a race issue is essentially irrelevant.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#122292: May 13th 2016 at 11:30:32 AM

You forgot FL, TX, and TN.

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122293: May 13th 2016 at 11:32:26 AM

I don't think these states are typically considered the "deep south", Texas and Florida not because they have significant regions that cannot be considered to be "deep south-ish".

eta: Misremembered what happened to Tennessee.

edited 13th May '16 11:33:32 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#122294: May 13th 2016 at 11:37:48 AM

By that same token, however, significant regions are Deep South-ish, and that's close enough. If we're talking about it as a political and cultural area, we would be remiss not to include them.

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122295: May 13th 2016 at 11:38:19 AM

The top 10 Senate races of 2016 — now featuring more Trump.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#122296: May 13th 2016 at 11:49:54 AM

The difference between Trump and Cruz is the difference in motive. Cruz is a Knight Templar in motive. Trump is a Glory Hound in motive. Quite frankly, the big issue in focusing protests on Donald Trump is that it ignores that the entire Republican Party for the most part supports the more heinous policies that Trump expounds publicly.

Yeah, and between the two, the Glory Hound is actually the better one. I can believe both Trump and Cruz starting a massive campaign against the illegal immigrants that violates multiple human rights laws, but once his approval ratings drop, Trump would back out. He's not even in this for power, necessarily; he's in this for the ego.

At heart, Trump's like a big kid with way too much power, wealth, and influence. He says dumb shit because he thinks it's funny. He does things that get him attention because all of his peers were doing it. He's like the GOP's little brother who tags along and, while in public, starts regurgitating all the racist, sexist diatribes the GOP privately told him because he wants approval but doesn't know you're not supposed to come right out and SAY those things. At the core of his campaign is a man who doesn't have much of an agenda of his own; he really just wants to be liked.

Cruz would see his low approval rating as the influence of the wicked and respond by throwing some more witches on the fire.

The existence of the USA is due to White Upper class privilege?

More or less, yeah. The American Revolution was about a bunch of white people calling shenanigans on the British's attempt to get us to reimburse them for bailing us out of a costly war. We called Daddy to drive us home and then when he told us we needed to pay him for the gas, we turned up our nose and went, "Well, if that's how it's going to be, I'm moving out! See you in Hell, Pops!"

edited 13th May '16 11:50:33 AM by TobiasDrake

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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122297: May 13th 2016 at 11:55:52 AM

People complaining about oligarchy in America, as if it's some new aberration, have been drinking too much of the American exceptionalism kool-aid. From slavery, a property-based franchise, male-only voting until the 20th Century, the electoral college, appointed senators until 1913-ish, and now, crony capitalism, America has always been an oligarchy.

edited 13th May '16 11:56:12 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122298: May 13th 2016 at 12:05:08 PM

@Jovian, I'm not sure if you noticed, but I qualified my statement with "when it's functioning properly"; and indeed in periods were the government wasn't horrendously gridlocked/facing a political crisis, the two parties have been very close to one another ideologically; the high degree of polarization is a sign and arguably a cause for our system failing to work properly.

[up] Fallacy; just because America's system has always been oligarchic, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

edited 13th May '16 12:11:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#122299: May 13th 2016 at 12:06:54 PM

And, at all times, crony capitalism.

This article starts off by highlighting the similarities between Trump and Sanders supporters... then soon goes on to show that they're "like oil and water" and that uniting them in one populist block would be "extremely difficult".

the moral narratives that they believe in, about America, and how we got here, and what we must do to get out, are completely incompatible, except for a shared sense that the elites are corrupt.

Likewsie, this Guardian article starts by putting the limelight on the overlap, then establishes how small that overlap is:

In an NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey conducted by Hart Research Associates this month, 7% of Sanders voters said they could see themselves supporting Trump. Some 66% said the same for Clinton.

A similar proportion of Sanders folk – 8% – gave Trump a positive likeability rating, compared with 48% for Clinton. That figure is unlikely to be causing Clinton campaign aides much loss of sleep.

So, please, Fighteer and al, for the love of honesty, do stop bringing that seven-percent minority up. That's about one in thirteen people. It's pretty insignificant. Likewise, stop complaining about Sanders supporters not going on to vote for Hillary: consider that those probably wouldn't have voted for her in the first place, and that Sanders has gotten people hyped and participative of the election in general, possibly increasing the total number of voters Clinton can count on. I don't know, I'll have to check the math, but it's hardly a ludicrous claim.

edited 13th May '16 12:16:59 PM by TheHandle

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122300: May 13th 2016 at 12:15:09 PM

[up][up] The times when our system has broken down most dramatically are the ones when the oligarchy has tripped over its own dick badly enough for the people at large to notice. That and the occasional periods of social reform, when a bunch of complacently racist white dudes get up in arms about losing their privilege to oppress minorities.

These are, more or less, constants throughout all of modern history, not just in the U.S. alone.

edited 13th May '16 12:15:37 PM by Fighteer

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