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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122251: May 13th 2016 at 8:17:55 AM

Indeed. A few of the "Southern Democrats" remain in the party, very much alive and kicking, to our eternal misfortune.

edited 13th May '16 8:18:06 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122252: May 13th 2016 at 8:18:06 AM

@Garcon: And once again you assume it's Sanders' youth voter who are flocking to Trump, even when polls on millenials show they absolutely despise him.

edited 13th May '16 8:18:49 AM by CaptainCapsase

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#122253: May 13th 2016 at 8:18:27 AM

Oh, I've finally realized that when people said the race was getting "ugly", it wasn't just about the jabs between the candidates.

It was more about the conflict between the voters, insulting each others' values and calling out each other on prejudice and bias.

But it's eye-opening. You see where people are divided, and which side of the divides people are moved to.

It's so saddening...

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#122254: May 13th 2016 at 8:19:32 AM

Can I then make the rhetorical jab that white working class individuals have been left to rot by the democratic party establishment?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122255: May 13th 2016 at 8:20:18 AM

[up][up] It's a normal part of democracy unfortunately. The big issue is that our system simply cannot cope with a highly polarized electorate, which in every other country has been the norm throughout history.

edited 13th May '16 8:21:29 AM by CaptainCapsase

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#122256: May 13th 2016 at 8:21:36 AM

A while ago, I remember an article was posted about a tow truck driver who left a person stranded because they were a Sanders supporter.

Well, for better or for worse, internet karma has hit him hard

http://americannewsx.com/human-interest/bad-samaritan-experiences-instakarma-internet-style/

Also, apropos of nothing, a funny thought I'd had that the earlier mention of bumper stickers reminded me of: I want to get bumper stickers for each candidate and put the Trump sticker on the left side of my bumper and the Clinton sticker on the right side. Main thing that'd stop me is I doubt people would get the joke.

edited 13th May '16 8:23:40 AM by sgamer82

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122257: May 13th 2016 at 8:22:41 AM

[up][up]We've had a highly polarized electorate since the founding. I have no idea where you'd get the idea that this is a new thing. Trump may be a new phenomenon in terms of his ability to win the primary as a know-nothing outsider, but he's far from the first to run and amass a lot of popular support.

@vandro: The white working class has been "abandoned" economically since the Reaganite ideology became ascendant in the 70s and 80s. Voting for Trump isn't going to help that. Sanders' ideas would certainly make a difference, but not specifically for whites any more than blacks, Latinos, you name it.

The working class in general has been ratfucked in Western societies for all but a slim three to four decade period in the mid-20th century.

edited 13th May '16 8:25:29 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#122258: May 13th 2016 at 8:27:55 AM

It's not the normal millennials who are jumping ship from Sanders to Trump.

It's the rich ones. The ones who are voting for either of them just because it's fashionable to hate the establishment and who have never and probably will never do any amount of hard work. They'll coast by on their parent's money and connections and haven't really been hit hard by any of the Republican's anti poor and anti minority policy.

The ones who really don't have any big stake in this election because they've always had their needs taken care of.

edited 13th May '16 8:29:05 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122259: May 13th 2016 at 8:31:33 AM

[up][up] It was very polarized near the founding when we were in the most danger of collapsing into a dictatorship, during the buildup to the civil war, and to a lesser extent during the build up to the Great Depression.

Outside of periods which can rightfully called crises, American mainstream politics have historically been quite unpolarized by international standards.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/political-polarization-in-the-american-public/

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2649215

[up] Have there been any polls showing a significant crossover (enough to change the outcome of the general election) between Sanders and Trump beyond a random asshold here or there? I imagine even the accelerationists are a small enough group so as to be a non-factor.

edited 13th May '16 8:44:39 AM by CaptainCapsase

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#122260: May 13th 2016 at 8:40:48 AM

Even in the last ten years, polarization has gotten much stronger. Witness the collapse of "moderate" politicians and the increasing gridlock and party line votes in Congress.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122261: May 13th 2016 at 8:46:38 AM

[up] Yep, and historically that's correlated perfectly with major political crises in American history. This degree of polarization is pretty much normal in a parliamentary system (and in most other presidential democracies) and they're designed to account for that and continue functioning in spite of it, but it's absolutely crippling for the American system of democracy.

edited 13th May '16 8:50:45 AM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122262: May 13th 2016 at 9:00:00 AM

The collapse of "moderates" can just as easily be credited to the increasing number of hot button issues that make the position of a moderate seem like a Golden Mean Fallacy. No one's going to praise you for being "moderately homophobic," for instance, or "moderately misogynistic." People bemoan the increasing partisanship of our electorate, but when this country is at its least partisan, generally it's because the political elite has united in throwing some vulnerable minority under the bus.

edited 13th May '16 9:00:31 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#122263: May 13th 2016 at 9:04:57 AM

Interesting...Hillary-supporting Democrats are pressuring Sanders to quit the race.

I mean I know they want her to win, but asking him outright to quit I think indicates a little more care for their side. They don't want Trump to win, and they don't want to split voters between them, so...it's pretty funny.

And this last part...

“There’s a lot of cross-over voters that are more about hurting a nominee as opposed to helping a potential nominee,” she said.

Clinton backers say there’s plenty for Sanders to do in his old job — and a lot of good reasons for him to join forces. If Democrats regain the majority in the Senate, he’d likely become chairman of the powerful Senate Budget Committee.

“We are looking forward to welcoming him back to the Senate,” said Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.

Sanders did want to to have a lot of input on the money. I kept thinking I'd vote either him or Clinton, despite her history...

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122264: May 13th 2016 at 9:10:59 AM

[up][up] Sorry if you beg to differ, but social issues are not the sum total of what makes a political ideology. I'm fairly certain you'll disputes this, but I'd argue the underlying economic issues are quite a bit more important than social issues, insofar as I'd argue economic factors are both the root cause and effect of racism, sexism, and other such forms of discrimination.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122265: May 13th 2016 at 9:25:39 AM

[up]The intersectionality of economics and social issues is certainly relevant, but to apply it across the board is excessively reductionist. You're not going to make people tolerant of race or sexual orientation simply by putting more money in their pockets, getting them good jobs, and making home ownership more financially secure, for instance.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122266: May 13th 2016 at 9:27:12 AM

economic factors are both the root cause and effect of racism, sexism, and other such forms of discrimination.

Unfortunately, that's not at all true: racism, sexism, et. al., are integral parts of human societies regardless of wealth, class, and other factors. It takes a systematic effort to root them out. Now, inequality definitely aggravates prejudice, in as much as people who feel shafted by the system look for "others" to blame for it — we can see the outcome of this in World War II, among many other examples.

What Trump and Sanders share is the redirecting of this existential anger towards "the people in charge of the system". However, it is deeply myopic for a privileged white voter to look at a minority voter and proclaim that he/she should be primarily concerned with Wall Street's hogging of the wealth.

[down] Let's put it this way: people were racist and tribalistic back when the median individual lived all their life in the same mud hut in the same mud town.

edited 13th May '16 9:31:24 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#122267: May 13th 2016 at 9:29:22 AM

While I disagree with Zephyr's point, I wouldn't say that money prevents bigotry. I mean, education might have some effect (and education comes with money), but economics being the root of all evil I'd argue isn't especially true.

[up]Exacto-Mundo.

edited 13th May '16 9:31:56 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122268: May 13th 2016 at 9:32:00 AM

I'm not saying economic factors alone make or break racism, but I do maintain that it is nearly impossible for significant progress to be made on racial issues beyond the current state of affairs (equality under the law but not in practice) without resolving underlying economic issues that prevent further progress.

Note that I'm not referring specifically to wealth inequality here; the fact that blacks have an extremely disproportionate share of poverty (and by extension crime) in America does just as much to fuel the cycle of racism as does overt prejudice.

edited 13th May '16 9:35:53 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122269: May 13th 2016 at 9:35:45 AM

It takes both. You have to resolve the economic issues and the social ones, and you can't treat them in isolation.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122270: May 13th 2016 at 9:37:21 AM

[up] Note that I'm coming from a point of view that skews much closer to historical/economic determinism than to it's opposite. I am not advocating for ignoring social issues, rather I am arguing that attempts to go beyond mere equality under the law are doomed to fail in be long term as long as the underlying economic factors which reinforce tribalism and antisocial behaviors remain unresolved. In the case of certain forms of prejudice there are also significant technological barriers remaining that I would argue prevent further progress on those issues:

edited 13th May '16 9:52:19 AM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#122271: May 13th 2016 at 9:51:55 AM

Economic prosperity is inherently inconsistent, and a poor stipulation for ensuring civil rights.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#122272: May 13th 2016 at 9:53:39 AM

[up] Major leaps in civil rights have almost always taken place in times of either extremely poor economic prosperity, or extremely good economic prosperity, and the former scenarios almost always involve major civil unrest and oftentimes armed civil conflict.

edited 13th May '16 9:54:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#122273: May 13th 2016 at 9:54:27 AM

Take note that race relations and the like have their own thread to put discussion into.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#122274: May 13th 2016 at 9:54:54 AM

If economic prosperity ensured civil rights, South Africa wouldn't have spent as much time depriving the black population of their civil rights as they did.

And to say "Sanders is only losing because Clinton won the Deep South" is an incredibly idiotic statement. The Democrats in that part of the country are not some alien group who need to be run out of the party.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#122275: May 13th 2016 at 9:54:56 AM

Let's put it this way. If you assume that there are social and/or prejudicial barriers to full economic equality, then simply engaging the economic issues won't resolve those barriers. For example, the ratio of white males in top socio-economic positions is overwhelmingly disproportionate to the general population. Even if you start taxing them at massive rates and break up their conglomerates, you won't magically make them start letting more women and minorities into their clubs. Far from it; they are likely to blame those people for their sudden discomfiture and become even more opposed to civil rights.

As another example, the high incarceration rates among blacks effectively lock them out of participation in economic activity, so even if you flood their communities with resources, it doesn't help them get jobs. So you have to fix the unequal law enforcement as well as the economic issues.

edited 13th May '16 9:59:24 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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