Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Good politics is boring. Exciting politics is not what you want on an everyday basis.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I do deeply apologize for linking to the Daily Beast but I'm having trouble finding any other articles after seeing it on the news.
George Zimmerman putting the gun he used to murder Trayvon Martin up for auction.
Initial bidding begins at $5,000 and he has promised to donate a portion of the proceeds to anti Black Lives Matter organizations and to fight Hilary Clinton.
Oh really when?Yes, that's the Caveat Emptor mindest.
Personally, I don't approve of taking advantage of people's stupidity, unless it's of the Stupid Evil sort.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.I think that it reflects equally poorly on both buyer and seller.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Back to the election, I still seriously doubt there's going to be a significant number of Sanders' supporters voting for Trump; if they cause problems for Clinton it'll be by voting for a third party candidate, writing in a vote for Sanders, or just not voting.
Since I live in New York, I have the luxury of being able to do that in this election and probably every subsequent election for the foreseeable future.
Ideally I'd like to see Clinton get just enough of Sanders supporters to vote for her to avoid a loss in he general election, while the rest of them vote for a third party candidate or write in a vote for Sanders, but outside of solidly blue states that's playing with fire, assuming Trump doesn't fall completely flat on his face.
That would, I hope send the message very clearly to the democrats that they cannot expect to continuously bait and switch the progressive left in the same manner the GOP leads on evangelicals and libertarians year after year.
edited 12th May '16 8:40:10 AM by CaptainCapsase
Point of order: George Zimmerman didn't murder anyone, so the gun is the one used to kill Trayvon Martin. (Cue outrage for bucking established narrative. Doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman can be a terrible human being who killed an innocent person due to his own stupidity without literally being a murderer. It's an important distinction.)
Personally, I see this as part of Zimmerman's ongoing meltdown. The guy has been unhinged since he became an almost-universally hated media sensation. I actually feel sorry for him — he's an idiot and his idiocy got someone killed, but he doesn't deserve to be the focal point of a much larger social issue that he's only peripherally involved in at best.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.As much I believe he went for Martin based on prejudice and got in an unnecessary altercation which ended with Martin's death, I would still consider trying to get him for murder to be beyond the court's ability to demonstrate, and as such would have settled for manslaughter, his life post-trial has shown he is both unrepentant and terrible and should never have had a gun in the first place.
![]()
The events of that night are pretty clear. Zimmerman started following Martin, Martin attacked him in response, and Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense. Stupid, avoidable, and entirely Zimmerman's fault? Absolutely. Murder? No. This was known pretty much from the beginning, which is why they initially declined to prosecute Zimmerman — it's not in anybody's interest to waste time and money on a trial that you know won't result in a conviction. The media frenzy that rose up around the incident made a trial a political necessity, however... and then the people who had already decided that Zimmerman was guilty cried foul when things played out exactly as expected and he was found not guilty.
Don't get me wrong, I think Zimmerman's idiotic behavior is responsible for Martin's death, and racial violence is absolutely a massive problem that needs to be addressed. But the specific details of that specific case doesn't support the idea that Zimmerman is a murderer. People try to make Zimmerman the face of racist white assholes murdering black people, but it just isn't true. Zimmerman's idiocy is of an entirely different nature, and what happened to Martin wasn't murder. A pointless, easily-avoidable tragedy, yes, but not murder.
Manslaughter was included as a "lesser included charge" in the trial (ie, Zimmerman was formally charged with second-degree murder, but the jury was allowed to say "we find him not guilty of second-degree murder, but guilty of manslaughter" as their verdict), and he was found not guilty of that as well. The evidence suggests that Martin attacked Zimmerman because Zimmerman was following him. Shooting someone who is attacking you is not manslaughter, even if they're attacking you because you're an idiot.
edited 12th May '16 9:16:51 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Considering how tacky it was to try and sell the gun online, glad it's removed from the auction.
I wish we could just take away his gun, but unfortunately, things don't work out that way. Being tacky is not against the law, and we cannot legally say he was a murderer and thus remove the gun from his possession. Therefore, not much we can do.
Shadow?Zimmerman followed him because he was black. Despite repeated warnings and advisements from police he still did that. He confronted him because he was black and ultimately Martin died because he was black.
Zimmerman has shown time and time again that he is a bigot through and through and is completely unrepentant and feels no guilt for hunting and killing a 17 year old child.
He wasn't some idiot in over his head. He knew exactly what he was doing and what he wanted to do.
edited 12th May '16 9:18:05 AM by LeGarcon
Oh really when?![]()
Murderer in a technically sense no, but I think people are using it as a catch all for unlawful killing, same way that other cases of a victim of a crime (in this case armed stalking) attacking their victimiser and the victimiser killing them in response might not be murder (due to the lack of pre-planning) but it's still a crime.
edited 12th May '16 9:24:45 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranPeople rarely use the term murder in the technical sense. They use it to evoke emotion. We should all be aware of this by now, we hear it constantly.
And I mean, doing that probably does cause some problems, like what Jovian outlined, but it's not going to stop being used that way anytime soon.
edited 12th May '16 9:29:37 AM by LSBK
![]()
![]()
No, he killed Martin because Martin jumped him and was pounding his skull into the concrete. I mean that literally, not figuratively — one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case was defensive wounds suffered by Zimmerman, particularly on the back of his head. Had that not happened, then Zimmerman wouldn't have shot him — or at least, if he had shot Martin without being attacked first, then that would have been murder. But that's not what happened.
![]()
It wasn't unlawful. Stupid, but not unlawful. Believe me, if Zimmerman had done anything illegal, then he would have been found guilty for it — as it should be. Following someone on a public street isn't unlawful, nor is it justification for being attacked. Shooting someone in self defense is also not unlawful. Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death in the sense that Martin would not have died if not for Zimmerman's actions, but it wasn't murder in a legal or moral sense.

Most of us would choose movie B,
One I'm not sold on that, two peoples don't vote the same way they picked a film. I've seen people vote one way or another for stupid reasons (like the last name on the ballot always getting extra votes), but nowhere near enough people do that to swing any election beyond a local council seat.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran