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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120326: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:43:37 PM

Speaking of the origin of states, I must say that I find it bemusing that the name California stems from a fictional island in an obscure romance novel of the 15th century.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120327: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:46:08 PM

Wow, is that true? It's not less ridiculous than Idaho, named so because someone thought it sounded like an Indian word or something.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120328: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:49:03 PM

There is a whole Wikipedia page about that topic, it also talks about where the author of that book took the name from.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#120329: Apr 27th 2016 at 3:28:21 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#120330: Apr 27th 2016 at 3:41:50 PM

Senator Cory Gardner (R-CO) is endorsing Ted Cruz for president.

Indiana Hoosiers Hall of Fame basketball coach Bob Knight will endorse Donald Trump.

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#120331: Apr 27th 2016 at 3:43:22 PM

George Takei says vote blue, no matter who, and makes a convincing case.

Man, do I love that old rascal.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120332: Apr 27th 2016 at 3:51:17 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#120333: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:04:22 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Wasn't California originally part of Mexico? Was it's name California even when it was part of Mexico?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#120334: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:08:24 PM

[up] The Spanish were just as capable of coming up with dumb names as people from the US were.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#120335: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:11:14 PM

[up] Doesn't help that the US tend to name it's places the same as the names of places from other countries or even the same name as other countries (Georgia, Lebanon (Yes, there is a Lebanon in the US), Columbia, London, Panama City, etc.).

edited 27th Apr '16 4:27:13 PM by Bat178

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120336: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:13:45 PM

Because that's a habit exclusive to the US? Hello, every single city named Alexandria. Although that's arguably worse because he was naming them all after himself.

edited 27th Apr '16 4:15:35 PM by AceofSpades

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#120337: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:16:04 PM

Were those named after the place rather then the man though? There's a difference between naming things after a place and several places being named after the same person.

The US at least commonly has New in front of places, also a lot of names were picked before the US was a country by colonial masters.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#120338: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:17:05 PM

Here's what's clear, Ace: you decided on your own that I wasn't going to change my mind, and you decided to proceed from there, with condescension and derision. That approach is ill-advised. Don't do it.

I may be hasty in assuming that ruler-drawn borders are bullshit. I'm extrapolating from my experience, which is in a somewhat different context, though both processes are colonial. I am used to thinking of ruler-drawn borders as the work of out-of-touch elites, and of breaking ethnic and cultural groups up with said borders as an act of crippling, of sowing chronic discord and planting the seeds of strife for generations.

I am, in fact, open to be shown an exception to the rule. But my starting point is indeed that different cultures should be allowed to go their separate ways if they so wish, rather than be broken apart and forced to remain and deal with groups with mutually incompatible (sometimes incomprehensible) world-views, as neighbours rather than as foreigners.

And I'm certainly not against the Divided States of America on principle. No country is entitled to exist as a whole, if the parts do not wish to remain together. However, though it is hypocritical, I don't give a shit about your right of self-determination if what you want to do with it is, say, to perpetuate slavery, but that's a pretty exceptional case.

edited 27th Apr '16 4:17:45 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120339: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:17:39 PM

King of Prussia is the crowner for town names in the US, though. Dunno what Pennsylvanians were thinking then.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#120340: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:19:08 PM

@Vote Blue No Matter Who

I'll admit up front i haven't seen the video yet (not on a place i can watch) but on the idea itself: normally I hate that kind of "this side no matter what" mentality. I loathe when political discussion devolves into "my side is right and if you disagree you are wrong and an enemy of the State."

In this specific instance I'm inclined to agree only because the Republican choices are either consistently proving their unworthiness for the office by word and deed, a religious zealot who should be kept from real power, or irrelevant.

The idealist in me likes Sanders. Even if his ideas are Pie in the Sky with little chance it being implemented, he at least has the most positive tone of the bunch. That said, the realist in me has no issue voting Clinton. I have some misgivings about stuff she's been involved in (I know, I know, empty air scandals etc) but she has from the beginning struck me as the single most competent candidate in the set.

Still, I dislike the idea of Vote X No Matter what as a concept. It's way too close to the mindset I absolutely hate in politics.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#120341: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:20:35 PM

[up][up]"We are living in a pig Penn."

Non Indicative Username
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#120342: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:26:19 PM

[up][up]As much as I loath Sanders' policies, I will give him credit for at least outwardly appearing to have the right attitude here. I will also give him credit for not being any kind of hypocrite, unlike Trump.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#120343: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:28:21 PM

[up]X5 In the US the borders came before the local culture in some sense, with Africa and the Middle East is was a colonial power splitting local natives from each other to divide them, the US (and other British coloniser lead colonial territories) simply killed all the local natives, so there was no need for any border shenanigans.

edited 27th Apr '16 4:28:56 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#120344: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:37:25 PM

@"Vote party no matter who": I'd argue that's technically a bad attitude to have, but the problem is that people aren't inherently bi-partisan either (even free-thinking people), and ultimately find themselves in developing political views in alignment more with one part than the other. Eventually, it gets to a point where you can usually decide which candidate to vote for based on their party.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#120345: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:39:52 PM

I'd note that the "vote blue no matter who" isn't about voting for any Democrat just because they're a Democrat, it's about staying united because both Sanders and Clinton actually have similar views and one shouldn't turn away from one candidate just because of the primary campaign.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#120346: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:40:52 PM

Regarding gerrymandering (and/or partisan redistricting, take your pick): the easiest way to get rid of that is to get rid of congressional districts entirely. Have the entire state elect all of their representatives at once via a system like single transferable vote, which allows for electing as many people as you have offices to fill with a single election. The idea of congressional districts invites not only partisan redistricting, but also encourages representative to push for pork, so they can point at something local to their district and say "see what I've done for you? Re-elect me and there's more where that came from!" (even if such pork is bad for literally everyone else).

Regarding the discussion on equality of votes and (though it wasn't mentioned by name) the electoral college: The President can do things like appoint federal judges, who can do things like overturn state laws. So voters have a stake in the Presidential election as citizens of a given state, not just as individuals, which is why there's a bit of balancing to keep small, low-population states from being completely irrelevant. That said, if you want to make the Presidential election more "democratic", I'd say make the electoral college votes proportional — except the extra two in each state, which go to the overall winner of the state. The concept of "swing states" does way more damage to the democratic-ness of the election than the electoral college does.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120347: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:41:56 PM

To divide the US along cultural lines is just as "arbitrary" as any other reason, though. And you've seem to gone into full on splitting the country up rather than just drawing internal borders. We're not, realistically speaking, heading towards another Civil War or legal splitting of the country. That's not on many people's minds. Same for re-drawing internal borders, which I've said every single time the issue has been brought up. US citizens simply aren't interested in redrawing our state borders. It's not seen as a problem. So to state that it's a solution to anything isn't viable. Where's the proof that anything like a majority or a plurality of the US citizenry want this? That's your biggest factor in this, your biggest block.

Hell, that last article linked didn't even seem to be saying the borders should be withdrawn. (And notice that French Canada contains both Quebec and Louisiana, which for whatever similarities they share certainly have their share of differences.) To base it the borders on culture alone is pretty damn arbitrary given that map.

There is no proof that this solves the US's problems. Every argument I've seen for it has failed to state that clearly. Every argument I've seen for it is pie in the sky idealism. (And frankly "natural" borders are just as arbitrary. See Texas's fight over whether our southern border should be the Rio Grande or the Nueces. Not exactly less prone to fighting or legislation, that.)

[up]I think most of us here would like things like the transferable vote, but you have to build awareness for such a thing. It's worth pursuing, but it's a path that'd be a long one.

edited 27th Apr '16 4:45:07 PM by AceofSpades

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#120348: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:44:59 PM

[up][up][up][up] True, and I'll acknowledge I'm inclined towards liberal candidates anyway since I'm mostly concerned with social issues. The problem comes when voting for someone based solely on their party becomes the knee jerk automatic response. What if, somewhere down the line, the Democratic nominee is the Dem equivalent of Trump. I could not, in good conscience, vote for someone like that. I'd rather see my vote "wasted" on a candidate with no chance u prefer, but all too many will see the D in front of their name and go off that.

edited 27th Apr '16 4:45:27 PM by sgamer82

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#120349: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:50:07 PM

Yeah, not many people are actually interested in seceding. Something I've noticed when splitting up states comes up is, even when it's dressed up with being about economics or money, what it really comes down to is "I don't want to be a part of state with so many people don't think like me." Which is a pretty toxic belief, no matter which side it's actually coming from.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#120350: Apr 27th 2016 at 4:52:18 PM

It's worth pursuing, but it's a path that'd be a long one.
Oh, absolutely. I was talking more in theoretical terms regarding changes to either the congressional or presidential elections. There's basically no awareness of the idea of alternative voting systems among the American public — all of the focus is on the race (getting money out of politics, etc), rather than the vote itself. Which isn't entirely a bad thing (both would help — they solve different problems), but isn't really a good thing either.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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