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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#120226: Apr 26th 2016 at 10:25:56 PM

The thing is... What can Hillary do if the Republicans remain in control of Congress? They will stonewall her like they stonewalled Obama. The hope from the Democratic Party right now is that the Republican Party collapses downticket because of Trump, but it is very possible that the Republicans remain in control of the Senate and the House while Hillary wins the election. In this scenario, there will still be a Republican Congress who refuses to compromise with a Democratic President. Even the best hope is the Democrats winning only the Presidency and Senate, leaving the House in Republican hands.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#120227: Apr 26th 2016 at 10:27:38 PM

And that doesn't apply to sanders because... I mean if the argument is "Neither will really do anything so we might as well go with the guy says what I like more" it's a terrible argument.

Like, I get being a bit depressed that she's the best option, but putting Sanders on some pedestal isn't going to make anything better. Especially now that he seems to have no actual chance of getting the nomination.

edited 26th Apr '16 10:28:41 PM by LSBK

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#120228: Apr 26th 2016 at 10:40:28 PM

To his benefit, Sanders has focused of getting young people to understand that they need to vote for Democrats downticket and in non-presidential years if they want to have their voices heard. If there is one huge flaw with the Democrats and Democratic voters, it is their focus on the Presidency to the exclusion of Congress. This is very much an Anvil That Needs To Be Dropped especially if the future of the Republican Party is defined by Donald Trump.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120229: Apr 26th 2016 at 10:50:32 PM

Sanders has been focusing on downballot races recently? That is sort of news to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120230: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:02:45 PM

Given Obama's use of executive action, Clinton is probably going to have to use that ability at some of the time to get things done, too. Anyway, having control of at least one section of Congress would tilt things in her favor.

@Knowlessman; You're kind of single issue wonking and fearmongering there. Even if SOPA or some other legislation passes (And I find that generally unlikely at this point) I very much doubt a wiki/forum like Tv Tropes would be brought down due to it. It's a wiki and a forum. Kind of hard to take that to court without getting laughed out of it. People interested in pursuing such legal issues are more likely to go to Youtube or something.

edited 26th Apr '16 11:07:26 PM by AceofSpades

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#120231: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:06:36 PM

I'm pretty sure Sanders said that when he started his whole Presidential run on pushing people to vote downticket and in non-presidential elections with his whole revolution talk. I will admit that was like a year ago, though. At this point, the election should be consolidating around Clinton and Trump, but it seems like Sanders, Cruz, and that other guy aren't dropping out.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120232: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:07:27 PM

Yes, the GOP will stonewall Hillary too.

But the point is, that she's vastly more electable than Sanders is. The amount of material the GOP could attack Bernie with is damn near endless.

New Survey coming this weekend!
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#120233: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:08:52 PM

Sanders did say he was in it to the end. Especially since he did better than expected. The other guys are in it to spite Trump at this point, I'm pretty sure.

[up]Potentially less than they think, though, since a lot of people have responded so positively to him. Still, I think him and Clinton would face many of the same challenges simply by factor of being the Democratic president who is likely to continue or go further than many of Obama's policies.

edited 26th Apr '16 11:10:09 PM by AceofSpades

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#120234: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:17:01 PM

[up][up] The whole electability thing doesn't quite make sense to me given what exactly Sanders would have been facing in the general election. I mean, if it were Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio who was the Republican choice, it would be understandable, but the Republican most likely to win the nomination at this point is Donald Trump. Is Bernie Sanders really less electable than Donald Trump?

edited 26th Apr '16 11:17:41 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#120235: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:54:10 PM

Are there any of Sanders' supporters who now wish he was further to the Left?

Keep Rolling On
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120236: Apr 26th 2016 at 11:55:14 PM

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/polls_say_bernie_is_more_electable_than_hillary_don_t_believe_them.html

Read this article in its entirety and then come back and tell me, what you think would happen.

New Survey coming this weekend!
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120237: Apr 27th 2016 at 12:03:08 AM

Much of that article is about things Republicans throw at every Democratic candidate. "It's slightly less factually false/irrelevant" does not strike me as a difference that would matter much in an election. I agree with the general sentiment but that article is overtaxing the less relevant points.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#120238: Apr 27th 2016 at 12:04:39 AM

The thing with Trump is that he has a significant section of people convinced that he'll go to the center and thus be more palatable than a Cruz or a Sanders, without Clinton's baggage.

Not saying its correct, but there it is.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#120239: Apr 27th 2016 at 12:13:58 AM

@texas last page

I love that the solution to high tuition is screwing over poor people by removing something to help them pay for tuition.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#120240: Apr 27th 2016 at 12:59:24 AM

To his benefit, Sanders has focused of getting young people to understand that they need to vote for Democrats downticket and in non-presidential years if they want to have their voices heard. If there is one huge flaw with the Democrats and Democratic voters, it is their focus on the Presidency to the exclusion of Congress. This is very much an Anvil That Needs To Be Dropped especially if the future of the Republican Party is defined by Donald Trump.

Bernie was initially non-committal on the question of down-ballot funding ("We'll see") and only in April decided to start fundraising for only three(!) Dem candidates.

edited 27th Apr '16 1:05:19 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#120242: Apr 27th 2016 at 1:39:33 AM

sounds like the CIA is up to its normal tricks when it comes to drones

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#120243: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:35:28 AM

I knew I shouldn't have read the comments on that article, people accusing him of being a filthy terrorist sympathiser who deserves to be killed and wondering why the hell the UK let him in. Bleh.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#120244: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:39:09 AM

Assuming he is, what about all the innocents who died in the process of trying to get him?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
yoneld Thus speaks yoneld: from Haifa, Israel Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Thus speaks yoneld:
#120245: Apr 27th 2016 at 2:47:50 AM

[up][up]I never bother. I don't need racist assholes ruining my day anymore than it already is.

Someone I know once fell for that kind of thing - and worse: he actually tried knocking some sense into them.

[up]Don't you know? They're all being raised from a young age to be terrorists and they only haven't done anything because they haven't gotten the chance!

edited 27th Apr '16 2:51:19 AM by yoneld

Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#120246: Apr 27th 2016 at 5:12:36 AM

Sanders has been focusing on downballot races recently? That is sort of news to me.
He's been increasingly directing some of his funds to downballot races to Democrats who broke with the DNC/DWS/Clinton to support him.

If he redirects funding more so, it's likely to be after the DNC convention. The reason he's not dropping out is he wants to have his peace and ask the Super Delegates at the convention to throw their weight behind him and trust in voters under 40 (where he leads). Apparently while he's behind Clinton, it's at such a point that the party has to accept a brokered convention based on current trends.

And because it can, and likely will, be brokered, Sanders has the right at the convention to ask the Super Delegates to pick him over Clinton. Which he has basically said he's going to do.

[up][up] The whole electability thing doesn't quite make sense to me given what exactly Sanders would have been facing in the general election. I mean, if it were Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio who was the Republican choice, it would be understandable, but the Republican most likely to win the nomination at this point is Donald Trump. Is Bernie Sanders really less electable than Donald Trump?
If we consider "Favorability" of value, Sanders outmatches Clinton on that subject in polls. The main argument why Sanders would flop in the General is he'd be painted as a crazy commie with a hammer and a sickle, more or less.

(Even the LIBERAL New Republic) Why Hillary Clinton Should Fear Donald Trump: He might be easy to beat, but his unrestrained attacks could taint her presidency.

The basic argument: He has no choke chain holding him back, and it's very likely due to his ally Roger Stone, that they'll try and frame her as being complicit with alleged sexual abuse against women committed by her husband, Bill Clinton. And it could lead to Republicans, even if she gets elected, framing Hillary as weak on Sexual Assault, Rape and Domestic Abuse.

edited 27th Apr '16 5:25:29 AM by PotatoesRock

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120247: Apr 27th 2016 at 5:38:15 AM

Why should superdelegates support Sanders? Hillary does have a genuine lead in the popular vote as well.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120248: Apr 27th 2016 at 5:41:31 AM

Sanders' logic is ridiculous. Since there are only two candidates, unless Smokey the Wonder Dog gets some spoiler votes, one of the two must, mathematically, win a majority on the first ballot (or on any ballot). His version of a "contested convention" is based on neither candidate having a simple majority of pledged delegates, at which point he'll make a bid for the superdelegates to break ranks. But that's an absurdly long shot, especially because it would deny the basic principle of democratic legitimacy that his campaign has been trying to claim.

edited 27th Apr '16 5:41:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#120249: Apr 27th 2016 at 5:51:51 AM

Hell if I know what his argument is going to be.

Things he could argue:

  • He could argue the party is heading in a more left wing direction and he would be the best to spearhead that.
  • Hillary, of no fault of her own, has a much toxic public image. Where he isn't tainted as her, besides being Pinko Commie Comrade Sandersky. (Polls have previously shown Sanders basically curbstomps every Republican in the General Single Handedly, where as Clinton has a much more tight and difficult race.)
  • He's more capable at getting poorer and unengaged voters to vote.

Who knows. Ultimately he still has the right to argue for it, since the Democrats apparently wrote rules in place that this 60 to 40 split between them gives him the right to force a brokered convention. If they say no, they say no, and he's more or less said he'll respect that final decision, and focus on helping to stomp Trump or whoever the RNC pulls out of their magic hat, for the General.

I say let the man say his two cents, let the delegates do the voting and shrug. Even if the Democrats get brokered, it's not going to be the shit show the RNC is going to be which'll be a 9th Circle of Hell on Earth formerly called Cleveland, Ohio.

The 2016 election and its repercussions are likely to make Paul Ryan a RINO and hated by the party hardcore conservative elements

Basically, Ryan is going to get Boehner'd if he stays Speaker, and if Trump torpedoes the election.

edited 27th Apr '16 5:54:13 AM by PotatoesRock

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120250: Apr 27th 2016 at 6:28:24 AM

Yes, Paul Ryan is epically screwed here, but so would any Republican put in his position. The Speaker of the House doesn't have the luxury of being an ideologue: he has to govern, and the current Republican movement despises governance.

I wasn't aware of the 60/40 rule for the Democratic convention, but I have to wonder what form a brokered convention would take. It doesn't change the number of candidates, and as I understand the rules, all pledged delegates are still bound for the first ballot. Do they really insist on a 60% supermajority to win the nomination in round 1, or is it just to get the winner declared before the convention?

Unfortunately, Bernie's narrative about getting poor voters to the polls is demonstrably false. He's certainly captured the imaginations of disaffected millenials, but that's not anywhere near the same thing. As I understand it, Clinton has a much better record with the truly poor, as well as minorities.

edited 27th Apr '16 6:32:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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