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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120026: Apr 25th 2016 at 8:52:52 AM

I think his healthcare plan is probably the most disingenuous. Single-payer just can't work in the USA. 50 states that practically 50 different countries that basically abide by the Feds out of convince. You would need a hybrid insurance system, like Germany or Switzerland, just to make up for the inefficiencies of a Single-Payer system.

Also, his healthcare plan would essentially destroy the Health Insurance market, which, the Federal government, would have to purchase in order for his plan to be even legal, because of the "takings' Clause in the Fifth Amendment. That's another $900 Billion that's unaccounted for King v Burwell should let anyone know, that even the tiniest of drafting errors can cause an entire case to go completely against you in a matter of seconds.

That's not even taking into account the Commerce Clause (which nearly doomed the ACA), South Dakota v Dole and a plethora of State Laws and Constitutions that may make his Medicare for All doomed even IF it somehow got pass a Democratic supermajority in both Houses.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120027: Apr 25th 2016 at 8:53:09 AM

[up][up]Let's put it this way: I would love to live in a world in which Sanders was electable and his ideas could be implemented; the details would sort themselves out as he hired good people to help him solidify them.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

[up] It is at least hypothetically possible that true single-payer would require a Constitutional amendment. I can live with the guilt of destroying the private health insurance market, although we've seen even in countries that have single-payer how that market can still exist for supplemental services.

edited 25th Apr '16 8:59:36 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120028: Apr 25th 2016 at 8:59:27 AM

[up] That's an attitude that's quite widespread, and which I fear will doom the United States to an oligarchy in the long term.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:00:41 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120029: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:01:10 AM

Don't deceive yourself: we already live in an oligarchy, and the way out may require Torches and Pitchforks. I'd prefer it not get to that point, obviously. For a Sanders-style revolutionary campaign to succeed, we'd have to have things even worse than they are now, and I'm not one for deliberately breaking a system in the hopes of being able to deliver a working replacement.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:02:26 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#120030: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:03:20 AM

Given how costly the Swiss system is and that it does allow discrimination by pre-existent conditions, it is not an example of what to do if Obamacare is not good enough. And that's before we go into quality of lifestyle issues.

Also, about single payer, National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius did say that the federal government didn't have the authority to force states to expand their Medicaid systems which is a wholly different thing than to set up a whole new federal system under the Taxing and Spending clause. And destroying a particular type of economy by outcompeting it is far removed from a taking.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:03:38 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120031: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:03:32 AM

[up][up] I'm perfectly aware of that, but I'm talking about one which is much more secure than the current state of the nation, one in which elections are no longer free and open.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:05:41 AM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#120032: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:05:19 AM

We already went over the oligarchy thing.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:05:58 AM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#120033: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:06:13 AM

[up][up] Our security is at the whim of the reactionary Right. Until they can be taken out of power, no major progressive cause can be implemented. You'd better hope that the Bernie Bros don't all decide to skip the election or vote for King Donald I.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:06:57 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120034: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:08:17 AM

[up] I'd disagree with you that it's the right that's causing problems; orthodox democrats are every bit as elitist and oligarchic as the republicans, the chief difference is where they stand on minority rights, and certain economic issues.

As I've said before, the issue at the heart of this is the way the American system is designed, which severely restricts the range of allowable viewpoints due to the monopoly of the two parties. Lessig was on the right track in that regard.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:11:47 AM by CaptainCapsase

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#120035: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:12:36 AM

I have never seen the controversy that comes from a single payer system, nobody complains that they didn't get a choice in their police force, or fire brigade, so why the hell is health care, a fundamental right, any different?

advancing the front into TV Tropes
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120036: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:14:02 AM

[up] A healthcare system is far more complex both from a legal and implementation perspective than a Law Enforcement Agency or Fire Brigade. And there ARE people complaining about lack of choice in who police them. Why do you think communities of color in major cities hate being policed by majority white officers?

This is the definition of an apples and oranges comparison.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:15:10 AM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120037: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:15:14 AM

[up] More complicated than the criminal justice system of the United States?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#120038: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:16:09 AM

The freaking country was formed by the dislike of tax. If there is something America hates more than Satan, it would be tax, monarchy, and Communism.

Problem is, tax is kind of necessary. Tax money pays for all the things we rely on that are government-funded. Americans want the government to pay for more things such as having nationalized health care like Canada has, but we also want to give the government less money to pay for those things.

That money needs to come from somewhere and nobody's really come up with a viable alternative as yet. I mean, given that the tools are so recent, I suppose nobody's ever tried crowdfunding state services, so maybe they could try that, but the proven method of collecting income to fund a nation is tax.

Regarding Sanders's ability to carry out his promises

I'm predominately supporting Clinton, but I do wonder if this might be the best possible time for a President like Sanders. With the GOP self-destructing and their congressmen shooting themselves in the foot by shutting down a basic government function in the middle of an election year, there is a strong chance that the Dems will take both the Presidency and Congress. The issue that Sanders would never get his ideas past the GOP-controlled Congress won't be a problem if Americans vote to throw out most of the GOP congressmen over this Supreme Court debacle.

If so, this might be the best chance a revolutionary President will ever have for making broad, sweeping changes without fear of opposition or having to deal with making false compromises.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:16:36 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120039: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:18:03 AM

[up][up] To be fair, he never said the justice system as a whole, he only said specifically choosing their own police or fire brigade, which is entirely different than criminal justice system as a whole.

New Survey coming this weekend!
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#120040: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:19:57 AM

@Fry, I think the thing there is that quite a good portion of the population here doesn't believe healthcare is a fundamental right, but a privilege for those who can pay for it.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:26:39 AM by carbon-mantis

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#120041: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:21:46 AM

[up][up]well, if you're happy to continue being the laughing stock of the rest of the world then keep your backwards health care system, we'll just be sitting here not having to worry about insurance or medical fees, oh, and what was that famous Kennedy quote? "we do this not because it is easy, but because it is hard"

edited 25th Apr '16 9:22:01 AM by FieldMarshalFry

advancing the front into TV Tropes
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#120042: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:24:57 AM

And then you have those of us who live in the USA that wonder why the people who don't want free healthcare are such idiots.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120043: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:29:17 AM

@mantis: A big portion of the population does, but it's less than the portion of the population that does. But, in the United States in particular, the opinions of the general population are largely irrelevant when it comes to what legislature is implemented.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#120044: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:29:36 AM

[up][up][up] Fry, you'd be surprised — countries like Germany and Japan have compulsory Govenment-funded National health insurance.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:32:08 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#120045: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:30:16 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#120046: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:31:03 AM

Edit: removed reply to a thumped post.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:33:37 AM by CaptainCapsase

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#120047: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:32:08 AM

there is a strong chance that the Dems will take both the Presidency and Congress
Unfortunately, that's not actually the case. The Democrats might retake the Senate, but the math makes retaking the House extremely unlikely; the Republicans simply have too many "safe" districts, largely due to gerrymandering. (The Democrats gerrymander too, but the Republicans have done a better job of it, which is why they have an advantage.) This is one of the reasons that people have been saying that the Democrats need to focus more on downticket races. The presidency is important, but what the president can accomplish without Congress is fairly limited.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#120048: Apr 25th 2016 at 9:37:15 AM

While that little rant was mean-spirited, it's not at all inconsistent with some of the circle-jerk mentality that goes on in those sub-Reddits.

So we're officially declaring open season on insulting and being mean to people as long as you can tangentially to some idiots on social media? I get that reddit isn't a nice place a lot of the time but aren't we better then that?

If nothing else it's realy fucking disruptful to the flow of conversations round here to have some folks deciding to regularly inturpted things to throw shit at Sanders supporters and then we all awkwardly pause while wondering if such a thing will get thumped like it would if it was aimed at anyone else.

Are we realy going to allow reddit level discourse in here? Aren't we better then that?

Single-payer just can't work in the USA. 50 states that practically 50 different countries that basically abide by the Feds out of convince.

Someone will have to check my numbers but I think that more then 50 countries in the world have either single payer or government provided health care, so why can't the US add all 50 states? Hell its not like healthcare isn't devolved to a local level in some countries.

[up] There's a chance that Trump might turn enough Rpeublicans off the party that the Republicans loose the House, but that's a longshot.

edited 25th Apr '16 9:56:42 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#120049: Apr 25th 2016 at 10:02:57 AM

That money needs to come from somewhere and nobody's really come up with a viable alternative as yet. I mean, given that the tools are so recent, I suppose nobody's ever tried crowdfunding state services, so maybe they could try that, but the proven method of collecting income to fund a nation is tax.

One could make the case that Washington tried to crowdfund the Revolution by begging for funds from the individual states since Congress had no money due to not being able to tax anyone. The whole experience left Washington embittered at how the weak national government couldn't reliably support the army and how fickle the states were with their money for the army fighting on their behalf.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#120050: Apr 25th 2016 at 10:08:13 AM

Sounds about right. I was half-joking when I suggested crowdfunding state services.

It might be a cool social experiment, but I expect it would end in disaster based on the fundamental classism of our country. The people most able to provide funding for state services despise the people who need those services most. The money would have to be wrenched from them through gritted teeth, which is basically what a tax is anyway.

edited 25th Apr '16 10:09:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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