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Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#119276: Apr 16th 2016 at 9:40:55 PM

@Silas: There are left-wing libertarians, but their philosophy is highly unusual even by both anarchist and libertarian standards. Generally, they reject both government and private property (as in, ownership of land, which in libertarian-speak means natural resources) and favor a system of free, voluntary exchange in personal property - essentially, an artisan owns his tools and the produce of same, but nobody owns the mine where the metal's taken from.

Anyway, libertarianism by the definition of the US Libertarian Party (while they claim it transcends left-right) is hard left on social issues and centrist on social issues (with kinks - in the pure form, they oppose the welfare system at all, but the Libertarian old guard tended to be the people fighting hardest for a minimum basic income - and they're against government regulation of corporations but also against government subsidies, contracts and "corporate welfare"). In practice, of course, most self-identified libertarians are in fact hard-right racists, to the point where people like me who supported libertarianism without supporting racism tended to get a rude shock when dealing with our theoretical allies.

edited 16th Apr '16 9:42:40 PM by Ramidel

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119277: Apr 16th 2016 at 9:45:22 PM

In my experience, the Libertarians who are not hardcore racists tend to believe in a meritocratic society where each person rises according to their abilities and contributions without having their earnings siphoned off to support those who are less capable or less willing to work. They resent the idea that they owe anything to society.

The problem with that kind of Libertarianism is that it implies a model of human nature that just isn't factual. People will not magically develop an egalitarian society if everyone is left to their own devices, even if we could somehow guarantee an even starting point, which we most assuredly do not have. But if we really want to go there, the first step is to tear down the oligarchic structures of Big Business and redistribute its hoarded wealth evenly. Funny how that ends up resembling the goals of socialism...

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#119278: Apr 16th 2016 at 10:29:26 PM

Personally, my view on libertarianism is that it's a bit naive and too pacifistic for my tastes (non-interventionism and "de-militarization" of police, for example, I disagree with), and I don't see eye-to-eye on many social issues.

I agree with its meritocracy quite a bit. I would, however, argue that meritocracy requires more oversight to protect than libertarians generally give it credit for.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#119279: Apr 16th 2016 at 10:48:14 PM

There are left-wing libertarians, but their philosophy is highly unusual even by both anarchist and libertarian standards.

Hardly, what you describe is just Anarcho-Communism, which some would argue is a lot hat Anarchism is at all, as it's been argued that Anarchism is just a sub set of Communism.

It's relay not that unusual.

edited 16th Apr '16 10:48:32 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
war877 Grr... <3 from Untamed Wilds Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Grr... <3
#119280: Apr 17th 2016 at 2:01:55 AM

I would like to see the libertarians replace the republican party. I think of them like smart conservatives, even if they are just as crazy as everyone else. Conservatives are supposed to be about small government, not huge military and institutionalized prejudice. Sure, they like meritocracy, but meritocracy makes sense as the conservative ideal. It would be a perfect opposing position to progressive egalitarianism.

Of course this could all be rendered irrelevant due to technological advances in the next hundred years or so.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#119281: Apr 17th 2016 at 2:25:46 AM

Which is why the entire political spectrum should be described as a dodecahedron, in which the position a person holds is a point in three dimensional space.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#119282: Apr 17th 2016 at 3:28:43 AM

[up][up]Problem is, what the LP claims to be and what its supposed followers actually are are two different things.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#119283: Apr 17th 2016 at 4:10:15 AM

The problem with libertarians is that they're just Republicans whose only leftist view they have is to end the drug war.

They spout state's rights even though, when you ignore the obvious racist undertones it carriers, state/local level politics usually do far more damage than the federal level.

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#119284: Apr 17th 2016 at 4:38:29 AM

[up]x8 they sound like Marxist's to me, the type calling for the kind of communism Marx wrote about

advancing the front into TV Tropes
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#119286: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:09:07 AM

[up][up][up]As a Republican, I wouldn't say that. Libertarians also have anti-military, anti-police, isolotationist, and generally anti-nationalist (or at least a very different type of nationalist) tendencies. By contrast, Republicans tend to be much more nationalist in nature.

edited 17th Apr '16 6:09:38 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#119287: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:31:41 AM

Conservatives sounding like they should support meritocracy, while progressives sounding like they should oppose it, is my opinion a red herring. In reality the opposite is true, it's just the language each side uses is twisted.

When a conservative makes appeals to meritocracy, what they actually mean is that they support granting a a small number of people monopoly and privilege and that any competition ought to be beaten down. Which needless to say, is only Darwinian in the sense cancer is.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#119288: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:37:18 AM

[up]Not really. Competition is generally something conservatives think is good.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119289: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:19:30 AM

And yet they oppose it at every turn by supporting big business with its oligarchic and monopolistic tendencies.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#119290: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:17:09 AM

Conservatives say they support competition. In any practical reality, they don't except when it suits their interests.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#119291: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:21:03 AM

On the balance local government especially is an institution biased against personal liberty, since it's almost always the local level telling you when you can't play loud music or setting very specific rules about what you can and can't build on your private property, or stopping you from smoking in your own home if it's an apartment building, say.

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#119292: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:58:29 AM

Bernie Sanders won 15 of the remaining 23 Colorado delegates that the state awarded at its Democratic convention Saturday.

I've given up trying to figure each state's over-complicated way of assigning delegates.

edited 17th Apr '16 9:34:56 AM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#119293: Apr 17th 2016 at 11:21:43 AM

Wait until you get to the primaries of Pennsylvania and West Virginia - the Republicans there have some complex delegate rules.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#119294: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:10:17 PM

Honestly, I wonder if conservatives - or any political group really in terms of the majority of their members - actually support any particular system. I think they really support whatever means will achieve their desired ends. That's why small government that gets out of people's lives is good until suddenly it isn't. That's why people calling advertisers and threatening to boycott them is good until liberals do it and successfully drain money from Rush Limbaugh. Whatever the means are, it's a smokescreen. They just want their desired ends.

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#119295: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:26:31 PM

People absolutely do...Until they don't. Compartmentalization.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#119296: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:39:31 PM

The principled man is the first to go out of the window when the winds change.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#119297: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:20:03 PM

Unless your principle isn't to be tightly controlled by an ideology. Then turning toward what is useful and convenient for what you care about is built in.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#119298: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:31:00 PM

Principles are not ideologies, not in a narrow sense, maybe in a broad one.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#119299: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:29:01 PM

My friend and I came up with a bunch of quotes together, and one of mine was something like "People will do what they want to, then come up with a reason for it later."

Our quotes are here, and they're very political and/or related to human nature.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#119300: Apr 18th 2016 at 4:28:28 AM

Juan Williams: Ryan faces sea of troubles. Seems like so far the Ryan speakership is turning out to be a kind of flop - and it also talks about the dangers of a reduced House majority.

And in delegate news: How the Hyper-Liberal Enclaves of America Could Pick the GOP Nominee. Because major states like NY and CA distribute their delegates on a winner-takes-all per congressional district basis, the bulk of delegates come from a large number of Democrat-held districts with small amounts of GOP voters with only a minority coming from Republican held districts, meaning that the weight of a vote in, say, Nancy Pelosi's über-blue district carries far more weight than one in a GOP held district. Both Trump and Kasich hope to profit from this malapportionement which I'll call the "Trump-mander".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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