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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#119151: Apr 15th 2016 at 1:48:12 PM

"Dog whistle"? Methinks you are using the term in a different way than the rest of the world does.

"Talking point"/"Attack line" seems much more appropriate.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
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Lost in Space
#119152: Apr 15th 2016 at 1:51:19 PM

Hmm, you may be correct. A "dog whistle" is a seemingly innocuous phrase designed to appeal to a specific category of voter, such as Reagan's "welfare queens" and "strapping young bucks". It's so called because most people may ignore it, but it makes its target audience perk their ears up and start barking.

edited 15th Apr '16 2:05:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#119153: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:20:08 PM

On the whole Hillary and Sachs issue:

(Vox) The real problem with Hillary Clinton’s speaking fees is judgment, not corruption

Simply put, as I keep pointing, Hillary is in a bubble. That bubble makes her oblivious and doesn't grasp why those fees would be political poison pills, among other things, during a period of time when most Americans are still enormously pissed at Wall Street. And she has no reasonable defense for taking the money besides "Understanding their point of view" but it fails to take into account a significant amount of American voters think Wall Street best serves the country by having their execs torched and pitchforked.

For all her policy wonkery, Hillary suffers a major problem of failing to grasp what might make her look bad in the public lens. Or doing anything to meaningfully refute it.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119154: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:22:23 PM

[up] I won't disagree with that, and Krugman has also criticized her for that sort of "insider" mentality. It's an advantage while in office, as she comes in with bridges already built instead of having to make them, but a disadvantage in an election cycle in which there is a large amount of anti-establishment populist fervor.

Seriously, though, Trump and Sanders are like flip sides of a coin in terms of their populism and in terms of the nastiness they can evoke in their supporters. In terms of policy, they are light-years apart, and I would never even consider that Trump might be a good President while I would not be embarrassed to have Bernie leading the nation, but their campaigns have eerie parallels.

Aside from their personal character, the other major difference that I see between Sanders and Trump is that, if the latter gets elected, he would almost certainly enjoy a favorable Congressional environment in which some of his more crazy ideas could actually see the light of day. Sanders, unfortunately, will almost certainly face an obstinate legislative branch even if Democrats manage to squeak out a narrow majority in the Senate.

No amount of electoral math will flip the House note , no matter what Sanders says about a revolution, and that means that his major policy proposals are simply doomed. If he cannot achieve any major successes in his first two years, then 2018 will probably see another dismal Democratic turnout, returning the Senate to Republican control and guaranteeing that he will fail and taint the progressive cause.

[down] There's that, too, which makes Sanders' implications about minority voters not being "true Democrats" all the more disgusting.

edited 15th Apr '16 2:34:48 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#119155: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:30:17 PM

I'm skeptical that being out of step with the mostly white, mostly middle-class, mostly male demographic of American opinion-formers (and Bernie supporters) makes Hillary "in a bubble". If we look at the people who form Hillary's demographic coalition, it's a considerably more diverse slice of America than Bernie's, and many of her voters are just as, if not more, familiar with poverty and deprivation than Bernie's.

There's very little to suggest she hates her voters either, so if you want to claim Bernie knows what it's really like "on the ground" then you have to have a convincing explanation as to why Clinton is getting the backing of more Dem voters, and in particular more Dem voters from the most marginalized and economically disenfranchised demographics in the United States.

Preferably without nasty insinuations about those people being "low-information".

edited 15th Apr '16 2:35:44 PM by Achaemenid

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#119156: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:35:26 PM

That parallel between Sanders and Trump is pretty worrisome. As they both have huge fanbases with anti-establishment demographics, there is an alarming concern that Sanders voters will choose Trump over Clinton in the general election.

EDIT: Does the back-and-forth formality of the candidates names strike anyone as odd?

Sanders is referred to as Sanders or Bernie about equally. Almost nobody says Clinton, however; she's just called Hillary. Meanwhile, on the Republican side, no one ever talks about Donald versus Ted and John; Republicans are surname-exclusive.

edited 15th Apr '16 2:37:30 PM by TobiasDrake

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Lost in Space
#119157: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:38:57 PM

It's hard to talk about Clinton without having to specify which Clinton. At least in my mind. In most cases it's clear, but not always.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#119158: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:39:12 PM

Well, when the shit hits the fan and the lower classes finally get tired of the government and the bourgeois and so on it tends to go two ways. A socialism based worker's uprising which you see in Sanders or a race based nationalist thing like you see with Trump.

Oh really when?
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#119159: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:45:43 PM

Hillary has name brand value due to being in the public spotlight, and has earned respect/knowledge, and via her husband has a proven track record of the 90s economy and plummeting crime rate which helped minorities due to ~20+ years of neglect from Republican presidents. Voters skew older and the Clintons are fondly remembered and have the public trust with significant number of voters

When I say she's She's in a bubble of she keeps doing things like the private E-Mail server (no, I don't think there's a conspiracy, and I get why she did it because the NSA's provided Department of State phones and computers are utter fucking garbage) and the speeches (As noted, they're likely nothing burgers of no actual value and import), but it goes against for the E-Mails: A push of government transparency and that speaking fees represent a conflict of interest.

She may be getting the most votes but she's also contrasted by having the lower favorability ratings of the two Democratic candidates

Just because she's winning the majority of votes doesn't mean she shouldn't be criticized for lousy optics / information bubble syndrome.

Reminder, she has to make sure she doesn't turn off the Sanders voters during the general, and has to answer to them why they should vote for her in the general.

edited 15th Apr '16 2:49:31 PM by PotatoesRock

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#119160: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:47:05 PM

Almost nobody says Clinton, however; she's just called Hillary

To distinguish her from her famous husband. Nobody is gonna think you're talking about Jane Sanders when you type Sanders.

Hillary is getting some flack from left for saying the 2009 coup in Honduras ‘actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya’.

edited 15th Apr '16 2:47:43 PM by Demonic_Braeburn

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CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#119161: Apr 15th 2016 at 2:55:52 PM

@That article: I'm not exactly sure why you would link that in support of your opinion. It says because minority are more poorly educated and don't especially care about politics they don't side with reformists, which seems the opposite of you're trying to say.

Unless you're saying they're a Sanders supporter and that's kind of talk is the problem? But they seem to be criticizing him, so I dunno.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#119162: Apr 15th 2016 at 3:36:47 PM

With Clinton I'd say she gets referred to as both, it bounces a lot and varies depending on if you have to make it clear that you're referring to her over her husband.

As for Sander's and demographics, I was under the impression that he was loosing older blacks to Clinton, but he was doing equally well in Hispanics and winning the youth vote regardless of race, I don't know how he does when it comes to income though, does he win the working class?

[up][up] Clinton's foreign policy is one thing I suspect some on the left do worry about, I think she's smart enough to not do enough Iraq, but I could see her going Regan style with foreign policy, which wouldn't be that much better. There's being practical and then there's forgetting to try and bring some humanity to the international arena.

edited 15th Apr '16 3:38:24 PM by Silasw

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#119163: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:07:03 PM

[up] I have also heard that Hillary & Bernie are doing equally well with Hispanics and that Bernie does amazingly well with Millennials regardless of race. In addition, I have heard that Hillary is more popular with older voters in general, which includes older blacks as well.

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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#119164: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:08:57 PM

How is Bernie going to contest the convention if Hillary stays ahead with pledged (non-super) delegates, as she most likely will?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#119165: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:15:02 PM

[up][up][up] Bad in a bad for liberals way or bad for American national interests, because to be honest Reagan did kind of good on that front. Please don't kill me Forumtongue

Edit: And certainly not as bad as Bush 2. Though I don't think we ever had one worst than the First Bush administration.

edited 15th Apr '16 4:15:52 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#119166: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:30:43 PM

[up] I'd be bad for the world generally and bad for world stability.

[up][up] Maybe he isn't and it's all wishful thinking by people who want a contested convention for their own reasons? I certainly don't think he's going to contest the convention in such a case. .

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#119167: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:47:10 PM

How is Bernie going to contest the convention if Hillary stays ahead with pledged (non-super) delegates, as she most likely will?
I'm ambivalent on whether it's anywhere near likely or not, but the idea is supposed to be that neither of them would win an outright majority of the regular, pledged delegates, which would effectively lead to the superdelegates, who are officially not obligated to go for one candidate or another until voting in the convention, being the deciding factor.

edited 15th Apr '16 4:47:36 PM by darksidevoid

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PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#119168: Apr 15th 2016 at 4:56:40 PM

I'd assume Sanders would be arguing he's better equipped to handle the general and he's better equipped to grab some untapped veins of voters who are turned off by Neo-Liberals/Neo-Conservatives.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#119169: Apr 15th 2016 at 5:07:21 PM

Plot Twist: Donald Trump was lying to us the whole time. He's actually going to run the nation well.

Leviticus 19:34
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#119170: Apr 15th 2016 at 5:13:52 PM

As a Middle-Easter, I generally don't want a warhawk in the White House, because that strikes terror in my heart. If the non-warhawk happens to be socialist and good for US Citizens, then that warms my heart. But mostly I just want a president that isn't likely to bomb the shit out of my homeland.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#119171: Apr 15th 2016 at 5:19:31 PM

[up] They are already bombing the shit out of it, along with France and Russia.

edited 15th Apr '16 5:29:44 PM by Bat178

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#119173: Apr 15th 2016 at 5:59:03 PM

It's all been part of one nation at some point or another.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#119174: Apr 15th 2016 at 6:04:02 PM

Where are your half chocolate eggs, sir?

Medio Pascuas suena gracioso a mi persona.

As a central american, I'd rather have the protectionist guy run the US, for as profitable your outsourcing is to city folk, your free trade agreements destroy our local agriculture's ability to compete.

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#119175: Apr 15th 2016 at 6:21:53 PM

I'm going to revise what I said earlier. Hillary needs to win 1,090 — or 63.5% — of the remaining pledged delegates to win outright. This strikes me as very unlikely, as I expect the contests to remain close, so I'd say a contested convention is, in fact, likely.

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