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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#118526: Apr 8th 2016 at 5:34:09 AM

It would be like saying, "You have the right to freedom of speech, as long as you pass our screening process."

In most of the country a car is necessary for people to exercise their right to freely assemble, yet I never see anyone clamoring to let a guy with 20 DWIs drive without restriction, nor anyone advocating for children under 10 to be able to drive so they can practice their rights without the say so of the government.

Strange, that.

But while I'm all about the guns should be treated like cars thing, I think it is worth adding a caveat that both life and the need for guns is different in very rural areas, (between dealing with animals and being a hell of a long way from police) and as such would allow for looser rules/restrictions in those areas. (There could then be regular reviews of whether the area should keep that looser designation, or if it has changed and been built up enough so it no longer applies.)

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#118527: Apr 8th 2016 at 6:18:20 AM

Following that same analogy, many people in large cities don't own cars because the hassle isn't worth it when other forms of transportation are more efficient. Regional considerations are apt; I wouldn't deny a rancher the ability to protect his property against predatory animals, but I would still want him to get a damn license so we have some certainty that he isn't going to accidentally shoot his neighbor's head off.

Even Libertarianism (other than the hardcore anarcho- flavors) admits the need for a State to enforce negative freedoms: e.g., to prevent neighbors from shooting each other.

edited 8th Apr '16 6:27:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#118528: Apr 8th 2016 at 7:38:09 AM

The problem with this idea is: Who decides what the requirements are? The government? Absolutely not. Because then it becomes a privilege, instead of a right. And privileges can be rescinded, just because some politician is against it. It would be like saying, "You have the right to freedom of speech, as long as you pass our screening process."
That's a classic slippery slope argument, man. We already restrict the ownership of firearms. You're not allowed to own fully-automatic weapons (at least, not without getting a difficult and expensive certification first), for example. Felons aren't allowed to own guns of any kind in some jurisdictions. We also restrict certain kinds of speech, for that matter — but no one argues that since all speech isn't free, that means speech isn't free at all.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#118529: Apr 8th 2016 at 7:45:20 AM

Yeah if the goverment can't set requirements for who is allowed to own a firearm you get Somalia.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#118530: Apr 8th 2016 at 9:00:30 AM

Depends on how literally you read the 2nd. "shall not be infringed" could mean no limitations on any kind of arms, period.

Not that i or the Supreme Court believe that, but you could make an argument that way.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#118531: Apr 8th 2016 at 9:03:03 AM

The interpretation of the Second Amendment is obviously key to this whole issue. The question of whether the clause "well-regulated" permits the government to control who can and cannot own and use a firearm is pretty important; semantically, it conflicts with "shall not be infringed".

edited 8th Apr '16 9:07:41 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#118532: Apr 8th 2016 at 9:30:01 AM

So Paul Krugman has been complaining about Sanders's tone on Clinton, but he's also mentioned something about how Clinton voters perceive scandals that caught my eye:

But it wasn’t enough, largely because of nonwhite voters. Why have these voters been so pro-Clinton? One reason I haven’t seen laid out, but which I suspect is important, is that they are more sensitized than most whites to how the disinformation machine works, to how fake scandals get promoted and become part of what “everyone knows.” Not least, they’ve seen the torrent of lies directed at our first African-American president, and have a sense that not everything you hear should be believed.

I've suspected for a while that non-white voters may be less trusting in scandal narratives and this may contribute to why they are voting for Clinton in the Democratic primary and will presumably support her in the general election.

I also agree with Krugman's analysis that the Sanders campaign needs to keep the negative campaigning in the primary to a minimum, if at all.

edited 8th Apr '16 9:38:40 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#118533: Apr 8th 2016 at 9:54:35 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#118534: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:04:05 AM

[up]I don't really get why you boxed the first one. Isn't coal being a dying industry a given, why does it matter that she said that?

Honestly, a lot of things you say just comes off as you being contrarian towards everything about Clinton. Which is a bit ironic, but, eh.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#118535: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:08:03 AM

In fairness there does seem to be be a narrative around Clinton that basically goes "The Republicans have faked a bunch of scandals and negativity, thus all scandals and negativity about Clinton is fake".

It's the baby being throw out with the bathwater, just because you've been lied to about someone being bad doesn't meant you refuse to believe that they could be bad, it means you apply your dam brain and determine fact from fiction.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#118536: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:09:37 AM

[up]True, but Luminosity seems to be the exact opposite extreme. I'm not really sure why it has to be one or the other.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#118537: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:13:53 AM

There's only so many times you can hear that darn brat screaming about made-up wolves before you quit reacting and just let him get eaten.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#118538: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:14:01 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#118539: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:17:27 AM

@Silasw: Well, it is very difficult to take any Obama or Clinton scandal seriously given the unending stream of borderline character assassination that comes from the right, the noise completely drowns out the signal. Sort of a crying wolf problem there.

Wall St is pretty certain Hillary Clinton will be president. Prediction markets give Hillary a 70% chance of being the next president. And for the benefit of Sanders supporters, she's also considered a "devil we know" by a lot of folks there - not exactly a Wall Street stooge evidently.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#118540: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:21:23 AM

Krugman is being a disingenious dishonest liar again, as he always has been.

Does that also apply to his economic opinion as well?

Keep Rolling On
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#118541: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:24:12 AM

I see the narrative with Clinton being mostly a result of Crying Wolf - Congressional Republicans have been shrieking about her and other powerful Democrats so often, and so loudly that it's now being treated as white noise.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#118542: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:34:07 AM

The thing about the Clinton's "scandals" is that they prove that the Republicans are crying wolf. Bernie Sanders, thankfully, is not a Republican. It would be like ignoring a child crying wolf because a completely unrelated child on the other side of town kept crying wolf.

edited 8th Apr '16 10:34:43 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#118543: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:42:11 AM

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised if some people are tuning out negative things about Clinton entirely because the Republicans have been pounding on her reputation hard for two years and more. There's only so much of that you can take before you just get fucking tired of it. (Although my brother had apparently bought it hook, line, and sinker and when I disputed him on that he asked if I got my information from Fox News. To say my mind boggled is an understatement. He also thought Sanders was Ralph Nader for some reason.)

That said Sanders hasn't said anything that bad about her, although that may be about to change since things are getting closer together. I hope not, I kind of liked the Democratic debate being dignified and civilized. Guess we'll see what happens at the next debate.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#118544: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:46:41 AM

The thing about the Clinton's "scandals" is that they prove that the Republicans are crying wolf. Bernie Sanders, thankfully, is not a Republican. It would be like ignoring a child crying wolf because a completely unrelated child on the other side of town kept crying wolf.

Several unrelated children. When several children cry wolf, people grow numb to the cry instead of the child.

People on both sides of social justice have had to deal with that exact phenomenon countless times.

edited 8th Apr '16 10:48:08 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#118545: Apr 8th 2016 at 10:53:58 AM

A gang of kids on the other side of town have been fake crying wolf, fine ignore the lot of them, but when one of the few kids not part of that group starts saying there's a wolf maybe we should listen?

The Republcians crying wolf aren't unrelated, they're all part of the same group, refuse to believe the group fine, but people shouldn't refuse to believe that wolves can attack.

edited 8th Apr '16 10:55:06 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#118546: Apr 8th 2016 at 11:03:21 AM

This metaphor is in danger of running away from you guys.

But yeah, after hearing one group make a particular complaint for a while, it can be a bit difficult to take it seriously from a different group. The bias has already been formed, the mental defenses erected. At that point it takes active listening which you have to choose to do.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#118547: Apr 8th 2016 at 11:57:58 AM

Why Ted Cruz faces tough slog in winning over New York and Poll: Trump has commanding 34-point lead in New York. Seems like Cruz "Wisconsin momentum" may run out rather quickly - lots of things to dislike him over, there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#118548: Apr 8th 2016 at 12:07:35 PM

If anyone stood a chance against Trump in NY, it was Kasich. But Trump is taking all the independents that might have gone over to him.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life

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