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JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117776: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:29:12 PM

He was tolerated, not supported.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#117777: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:33:59 PM

@Bat: France too.

But the idea of either the UK or France invading the US is laughable - it's less likely than the UK handing over command of their nuclear forces to the US. (Not Hyperbole, by the way.)

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#117778: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:36:14 PM

Castro and Guevara proved to be complete nutbags when the Soviet Union had to tell them to settle down with the idea of going for blood when the Soviets decided to put their Ballistic Missiles on Cuba.

Those two were murderers. Being under sanctions by the US was no justification for what they did, as they did it to maintain their grip on power.

Inter arma enim silent leges
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#117779: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:47:37 PM

so did Batista, the US was willing to look away due to him being their ally, and if the South American puppet states during the Cold War are anything to go, it is acceptable to stop the populace of a sovereign nation choosing to be more left wing than you like because communism, a lot of it was also a case of Then Let Me Be Evil where they were forced into closer ties to the Soviet Union just for survival

advancing the front into TV Tropes
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117780: Mar 29th 2016 at 6:51:54 PM

They were also willing to look away from Batista because he was cool with the Mafia. Just look at all the casinos the mob owned in 1950's era Havana.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#117781: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:05:03 PM

Let nobody ever forget that time the United States deposed a democratically elected socialist president in Chile and imposed their own puppet simply for cold war points.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117782: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:06:27 PM

Technically it was a junta they installed, and then Pinochet took all the power from everyone else and the US didn't care.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117783: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:12:25 PM

Are you sure that didn't have anything to do with money? I know American economists worked closely on policy there, I assumed the plan was an investment of sorts.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117784: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:17:17 PM

From what little I understand of the 1973 Chilean Coup, Allende's policies weren't good for the economy, but I don't know much about the details of the entire thing.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#117785: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:18:14 PM

Sorry but Batista while taking out one dissenter here and there never made the use of systemic mass executions and created put tens of thousands in gulags, it was bad for business.

While he was brutal and repressive he didn't engage in the same scale of atrocities that Castro did, Guevara himself lived only for fighting.

Also he was already evil to begin with, he didn't needed to execute thousands because of the US or the Soviet Union, he and Guevara were very adamant on killing everyone who wasn't a supporter or would voice any different opinion. Those weren't on the hands of the US and because of the embargo, those were all Castro and Guevara solidifying their rule by killing everyone who would challenge them and scaring everyone else into submission.

Inter arma enim silent leges
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117786: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:18:55 PM

No not for the economy, I mean for the businesses that would've been upset if a socialist nationalized their industry or something. Understandable that they'd want to stop that.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117787: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:21:27 PM

You know how ironic it is that Guevara went from a communist revolutionary to a shirt you can buy online for like $20? I think that may as well be some odd form of karma.

Also, Batista and Castro can be summed up by the immortal words of Pete Townshend: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[up]

I admittedly don't know much of the topic, but from what little I recall, Chile's economy wasn't in good shape during Allende's presidency, though I honestly don't know if it was his fault.

edited 29th Mar '16 7:22:19 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117788: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:25:01 PM

Unsurprising for a Marxist. Have they ever done a good job of running an economy? I don't recall any positive examples, but I dunno.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#117789: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:26:31 PM

RE: The 1973 coup in Chile

The US supported it for a number of reasons, beginning with their belief that Allende was a communist, and ending with his threat to nationalize Chile's copper mines, which given the brisk business American corporations were doing with the Chilean mining companies was seen as a threat to American economic stability.

So Nixon and Kissinger pushed Gustavo Leigh and the other officers in charge of planning the coup into getting rid of Allende. It was also at their instigation, or so I understand it, that Pinochet was included in the coup—he was initially believed to be loyal to the government and was left out of Leigh's plans. In the end Pinochet managed to sideline Leigh and the others, which was entirely okay by the Americans, who viewed him as bringing stability to a state that was otherwise in danger of becoming a part of the Soviet Bloc.

Apparently stability requires 3000 dead, 30 000+ tortured, and god only knows how many imprisoned or exiled. Who knew?

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#117790: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:29:17 PM

[up][up][up]For me the biggest ironies regarding Che is how a homophobic, sexist, anti-intellectual and authoritarian misanthrope became not only exploited by capitalism but how he became an icon for people fighting for political freedom, freedom of expression, women and LGBT+ rights.

[up][up]Socialist Governments on the time were high on the command economy and planned economy theories, so I don't doubt that they'd run themselves to the ground without external intervention.

edited 29th Mar '16 7:30:05 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117791: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:31:54 PM

I'm surprised the US never managed a coup of Mexico when Cardenas nationalized their oil. Heck, the guy even let Trotsky stay in Mexico when Stalin was hunting him down. Trotsky actually died in one of the boroughs of Mexico City.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117792: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:40:24 PM

[up] FDR had a policy of making nice with the neighbors. From what I remember the only act of interference during his administration was backing the campaign of Juan Peron's opponent for President, to the point where the man's campaign was run out of the US embassy. Peron wasn't to pissed at us though, he credited the US backing of his opponent for his victory.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117793: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:49:56 PM

Wasn't Peron a fascist, though?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117794: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:56:47 PM

[up]Fascist-Lite.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#117795: Mar 29th 2016 at 7:57:25 PM

What exactly does that entail?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#117796: Mar 29th 2016 at 8:02:07 PM

[up] Only half the calories of normal Facism.

A deal to raise California’s minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2022.

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#117797: Mar 29th 2016 at 8:25:48 PM

[up][up]Peron had fascistic policies and was a huge admirer of Mussolini, but he was never as brutal as his idols. His regime committed human rights abuses, certainly, but by the standards of both fascist dictatorships and Latin American juntas, they were comparatively minor. He certainly had nothing on Videla, Massera, and the rest of The Process when it came to savaging his fellow Argentinians.

Actually you could make a far more compelling case that The Process, which never identified as fascist, was fascistic or neo-fascistic, given the sheer scale of the repression, and the hardcore right-wing nature of their politics. Same goes for Pinochet, honestly.

Anyway, the US government's problem with Peron had less to do with his fascist leanings and more to do with his dislike of American influence in the region. As demonstrated by the support that Nixon, Ford, and Reagan gave to Pinochet, The Process, Efrain Rios Montt, and you-pick-the-right-wing-junta. Actually, two of Reagan's favourites, Rios Montt from Guatemala and Hissene Habre from Chad are currently on trial for their human rights violations. May they both rot.

edited 29th Mar '16 8:31:26 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#117798: Mar 29th 2016 at 8:59:02 PM

If we're talking about US-backed dictatorships, what's the consensus here about the US backing Ferdinand Marcos after he declared Martial Law in the Philippines in 1972?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#117799: Mar 29th 2016 at 9:20:11 PM

Cruz, Kasich and Trump have all gone back on their pledge to support the eventual nominee.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/29/politics/donald-trump-ted-cruz-nominee-pledge/index.html

I believe the technical term for this is "shit getting real."

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#117800: Mar 29th 2016 at 9:28:54 PM

I personally find it kind of ironic that the United States got involved in World War II due to the machinations and aggressions of Fascist Nations and then after World War II, we're suddenly buddy buddy with Fascism.


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