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AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117501: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:37:14 AM

I think this has gone on long enough that Cassidy's point has been severely muddled. (And that change of subject from businesses to military service was extremely abrupt.)

And quite frankly, I fail to see how there wouldn't be huge resistance to conscription; mandatory military service is increasingly unpopular and the draft hasn't been enforced for decades specifically because of that. People who volunteer for military service are far more likely to be good at it than someone forced into it. You're highly unlikely to change the problem with how our culture treats guns in this manner, for a lot of reasons unrelated to our unhealthy gun culture. (Which, again, I'm not even sure what Cassidy's point was with that.)

In any case, there's other forms of civil service, and forcing people to do them is also going to be unpopular. Though you could possibly get it through as requirements to graduate from school.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117502: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:38:30 AM

Again, Switzerland's armed citizens have literally nothing to do with accountability or any of that nonsense and everything to do with the fact that their government and military will be destroyed within the opening hours of a Soviet offensive.

Oh really when?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117503: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:39:38 AM

That's true. But who care on why they did it, it works.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117504: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:41:06 AM

But it doesn't. They are a government sanctioned citizen militia.

As in, they serve the federal government and military and are effectively a part of it's fighting force. They don't keep it check just like some common grunt in the USMC doesn't keep the JCOS in check.

They aren't citizens, they're all reservists.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:43:04 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117505: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:41:06 AM

[up][up]The why is the most important part!

"Again, Switzerland. You say "we're not Switzerland", and that's true, but it's hardly equivalent to mob rule and violence for a large part of population to have military training. That was actually the norm in many societies, who could hardly be called examples of mob rule."

When professional military forces were smaller and the nature of warfare was more geared toward choking up the frontline with a rampart of corpses.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:43:03 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#117506: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:43:25 AM

I can vouch for mandatory military service breeding resentment. In Brazil our draft is still mandatory and most people really don't care for it. People often find ways of dodging it. I got out of it thanks to a diagnosis from a doctor emphasizing how I was a poor fit for it thanks to my Asperger's, and I'm very thankful I didn't have to go through with it. I don't care for military culture in the slightest and I don't want to go dying off in some conflict I might not even believe in. Fuck that.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#117507: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:44:58 AM

I'm a bit at a lose here, you all keep saying "military culture" but none of you have really outlined what that means to you, just that most of you think it's terrible.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:47:24 AM by LSBK

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117508: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:46:18 AM

But it doesn't. They are a government sanctioned citizen militia. As in, they serve the federal government and military and are effectively a part of it's fighting force.

As that was exactly what I was advocating in the first place, I'm not sure what the point is.

As I said in the first place, a citizen-soldier culture encourages a sense of duty to the nation.

But anyway, as this is arguing in circles with people being increasingly hysterical it's rather pointless to continue.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:47:25 AM by CassidyTheDevil

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#117509: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:46:58 AM

@breeding resentment: My brother joined the military willingly, and he resents military service more than anyone I know. Our soldiers already are made up of half jingoistic asshats and half depressed, disenchanted people who feel like they're hurting innocent people and ruining lives.

Making everyone in the country go into service will just increase the size of those groups.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117510: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:48:17 AM

"As I said in the first place, a citizen-soldier culture encourages a sense of duty to the nation."

Or it breeds resentment for a government that doesn't particularly care about you either way, for a nation whose history and traditions you can't wholeheartedly celebrate with a clean conscience, and for fellow citizenry who probably hate you, anyway, and for whom you have nothing, but unending disdain.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:48:55 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117511: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:48:41 AM

Here's the thing, when you serve your nation in a military context you do not ever question it. You do not keep your superior officers accountable, you are their property.

The Swiss realize that when the shit hits the fan they are expendable government property.

Accountability couldn't be further distanced from military duty.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#117513: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:50:21 AM

So accountability doesn't actually require the common citizen to do anything. Okay, sure.

Anything violent or that requires them to be armed and trained? No.

In a democracy accountability isn't tied to military power, Switzerland isn't an example of military training leading to accountability because the two are in no way connected, the Swiss government is not especially accountable because it's people have guns, it's especially accountable due to a cultural and political system based on referendums and popular consent that predates everyone being armed.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:51:09 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#117515: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:56:35 AM

Oh, and in response to Jack's whole thing about military dictatorship from a few pages back...you are aware that most military dictatorships come with a bodycount? Often a fairly substantial one? You don't need your own Augusto Pinochet. You definitely don't need your own National Reorganization Process. And that's what an American military dictatorship would probably look like.

[up]But you cannot create it after the fact. The Swiss government knew that it was a safe bet to arm people because they already had a functioning political culture. Arming people in a country where the political culture is already screwed up beyond belief, conversely, is just an amazingly bad idea.

edited 28th Mar '16 11:11:59 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#117516: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:58:20 AM

Switzerland is hardly unique in requiring mandatory military service. Here is wikipedia's list of countries that have it: [1]

I won't claim to be an expert in exactly why each individual country chooses to have it, but my understanding is that most people in most of those countries just think of it as some annoying thing they're forced to do but isn't really a moral issue, like paying taxes.

Also it's unrelated to arming people in general.

edited 28th Mar '16 11:03:52 AM by Clarste

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117517: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:02:23 AM

Arming people in a country where the political culture is already screwed up beyond belief, conversely, is just an amazingly bad idea.

I agree. I'm just not really good at specifying time. I tend to express things in the present tense regardless of what time it is.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#117518: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:04:53 AM

Many interesting opinions here about military service.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#117519: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:12:48 AM

@Breeding resentment: Again, it's not necessarily the case. It's true that everybody that's been to the military here complains about the military, but if there is resentment, it's more "why aren't the Haredim/wussy north-Tel-Avivians/insert group here doing their part too" and less "woe is me I have to shoot people". FYI, most soldiers won't even shoot a gun aside from ranges once every year once they're out of BT — there are, I think, roughly seven non-coms for every combatant (and not every "combatant" sees action).

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117520: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:15:27 AM

If your rationale for mandatory military service is to give everyone the experience of serving in direct combat, you're sadly deluded, since unless you manufacture a perpetual state of warfare, most conscripts will enter and leave service without ever firing a shot off of a training course. I'm not sure how this is supposed to inculcate any sort of responsibility ethos.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117521: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:17:26 AM

I'm reminded of how in the Russian thread the tropers there have said that their mandatory year of service is basically being the army's intern for a while and then going home. The Russian military only ever sends full time and enlisted soldiers for actual soldiering.

Oh really when?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117522: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:20:40 AM

If your rationale for mandatory military service is to give everyone the experience of serving in direct combat, you're sadly deluded, since unless you manufacture a perpetual state of warfare, most conscripts will enter and leave service without ever firing a shot off of a training course. I'm not sure how this is supposed to inculcate any sort of responsibility ethos.

Hmm...Good point. But no, I was thinking if a large part of population gets that training, violent criminals would be easier to stop.

Which, I guess is technically not what people usually think as accountability, but it sort of is right? Eh, whatever.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117523: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:21:24 AM

Vigilantism just leads to minorities getting shot for being minorities.

Oh really when?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117524: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:22:29 AM

Like in the US right now you mean? I agree, mass shootings are bad.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117525: Mar 28th 2016 at 11:23:23 AM

Not just mass shootings. Stand your ground laws are pretty much built for white people.

Oh really when?

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