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JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117476: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:37:53 AM

Republican opposition to Garland is beginning to fragment.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#117477: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:41:36 AM

No, it's just a nation of sexists. And the beloved citizen soldiers had no compunction gunning down an organized strike in 1918 for example. They just used guys from different parts of the country (particularilly hillbillies from the conservative rural parts).
How is that supposed to be different from the US?
Well, sexist because we only conscript men.

The second part isn't supposed to be diffrent from America. The point is, that a army of conscripts can also be used against it's own citizenry.

Where do you get the idea that civic duty must entail being intolerant? It's the exact opposite, a culture which encourages citizens to be well-educated and participate in civil society, teaching respect for others, fosters tolerance.
From you. You said to shame people who don't approve of being forced to serve in the army.

What has conscription to do with good education? The army doesn't teach respect for others. It teaches obedience to power and hierarchical thinking. It's all about forgetting to think for yourself.

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117478: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:42:41 AM

That's called "counterculture," and it's always been routinely rejected, because American-As-Apple-Pie Middle America just wants to feel great about America, even if it sandpapers away America's many faults. The fact that many critics of American foreign policy, domestic policy, history, and national self-image are or were socialists and anarchists means it's pretty much not going to fly. Americans love Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, but they love the sanitized, second-grade history book version of Dr. King, not the edgier, real Dr. King who spoke about the oppression inherent in the American mindset, about how our warmongering ways would destroy us, about how we had a responsibility not just to the rich and successful, but to the poor. They labelled him a socialist after that, and it was all over.

That's honestly more the fault of aggressive propaganda campaigns by the government and violent suppression of millions of peoples voices than anything inherent in in the concept of American tradition. Certainly, many of the those socialists and anarchists thought they were following the real American tradition, even if they were ignored.

Of course the real issue was always the middle class, throughout history they were always eager to suppress dissenting voices because they identify strongly with the top brass, even if in reality they're hated.

edited 28th Mar '16 9:43:07 AM by CassidyTheDevil

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117479: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:42:45 AM

To say that U.S. culture is monolithic on either extreme is a serious mistake. The melting pot metaphor is apt, but it misses certain truths, such as that some of the things being melted together are fundamentally immiscible and/or antagonistic towards one another, and we have yet to work out a way to reconcile them.

As a very, very incomplete list, we have:

  • Frontier-minded folks who want everything and everybody to get out of their business.
  • Puritanical religions who want to eschew everything modern and retain ancient social mores.
  • Anti-science know-nothings who believe in the divine bliss of ignorance.
  • Evangelicals who believe that they must spread their religious faith to all and sundry lest they go straight to Hell.
  • Segregationists: people who believe that it's entirely fine for one race to own another race or, barring that, keep them separated.
  • Minarchist Libertarians.
  • Free-market advocates who ignore the role of government in regulating the market.
  • Capitalists who are only too happy to use government to help them get monopoly power.
  • Mercantilists.
  • Federalists who believe in a strong central government.
  • Miseans who reject any government role in regulating currency.
  • Social Democrats who think that government can play an active role in keeping society working smoothly.
  • Democratic Socialists who believe in the government's ability to control market excesses and redistribute wealth.
  • Socialists who believe in government control of industry.
  • Fascists who believe in state-enforced racial purity and economic control.
  • Anarchists who believe in the fundamental illegitimacy of government.

I'm sure there are many, many more.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117480: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:43:39 AM

Yeah, you're not taught to be an upstanding individual or a well rounded person in any army.

You're taught to be property. In a military context people are pieces of equipment like any other and are treated and deployed as such.

Oh really when?
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#117481: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:56:13 AM

the best way to curb that resentment is to have government branches that are not likely to authorize wild goose chases.
As we've seen, political expedience makes for some very expensive wild goose chases.
before we do anything about 'military culture,'
To be fair, there are some things about military culture that have to stay - the rigid hierarchy of rank, the obedience - because they're there to support the wartime mission. You can't have people arguing and unsure in battlefield conditions. There are things tied into military culture that can be changed, like the tendency towards pro-gun stances, because they're not attached to military needs.
drastically reevaluating our approaches with traditional enemy nations like Iran,
Again, this is a political thing, not a military thing.note 
We have plenty of soldiers and we have plenty of tools.
And some of those are the same thing.
The US Military does have shortages in some areas, such as pilots of the UAV and fighter sort.
The areas we have shortages in are not areas you can cure with a draft - for the most part, they're jobs requiring higher than Secret clearance combined with strong technical skills. Those aren't exactly people you can pick up by a random pick of 1% of the 18-25 age men.
Where do you get the idea that civic duty must entail being intolerant?
I don't think it's civic duty that breeds intolerance, but military duty does lend itself more easily to certain types of intolerance.note 
The Republicans are really big on letting you be free to do whatever they want you to do.
Nicely phrased.
press ganging people into the military where they can be taught to be good little soldiers and exalt violent lumps instead of thinking men
... You really don't know anything about actual military service. We have history tests in basic training.
There might be an anti-war movement here, but they're loony leftist radicals, not mainstream.
Most of the people who do more than one enlistment in the military don't want to go to war.
Yeah, you're not taught to be an upstanding individual or a well rounded person in any army.

You're taught to be property. In a military context people are pieces of equipment like any other and are treated and deployed as such.

And yet, our evals routinely grade us on what we're doing outside our job, like taking college courses, doing volunteer work, and getting qualifications outside our primary duties. ... we are treated like property, I won't argue with that.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117482: Mar 28th 2016 at 9:59:24 AM

From you. You said to shame people who don't approve of being forced to serve in the army.

What has conscription to do with good education? The army doesn't teach respect for others. It teaches obedience to power and hierarchical thinking. It's all about forgetting to think for yourself.

I said to shame people who reject civic duty to your fellows in the nation. Civic duty includes education, which should include the populace knowing how to defend themselves. A population without that's not taught how to have a voice, how to participate, how to defend themselves, is a nation of submissives, the kind where people are completely reliant on bureaucrats to stop crime, the kind where they learn to submit in the schools rather than actually learn.

I suppose, military training was a bad way of putting it, what I actually meant for how to use a gun and such.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#117483: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:02:01 AM

Susan Collins is a relic of the New England Republicans and Mark Kirk is trying to get another term in ink-blue Illinois so I can see why they would bail there. Dunno about why Moran is thawing, Kansas is blood red and while its State government is busy running it into the ground the last time a Democrat was elected to the Senate from there was 1932.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117484: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:02:02 AM

[up][up]Bah, the absolute last thing we need is a nation of cowboys. Force should come from governments, not individuals.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:02:21 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#117485: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:07:32 AM

If the "how to use a gun" course also includes "how not to use a gun", a.k.a. "No, you idiot, your puny-ass Glock won't bring down the government if it goes corrupt", I can see that being helpful in curbing the "nation of cowboys" mentality.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117486: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:07:32 AM

"I suppose, military training was a bad way of putting it, what I actually meant for how to use a gun and such."

Fuck no, and give random drooling lumps the training to form right-wing militias? To form left-wing militias? Jesus Christ, do you want to turn the country into even more of a charnel house? When you start handing out guns to the unwashed masses and training them, both at once, you give them an incentive to shut off their brains and their hearts, and turn them into gangs.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:09:54 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117487: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:08:00 AM

Force should come from governments, not individuals.

Government "for the people, by the people" necessarily means a strong civil society, not one where people rely on bureaucrats. It's all well and good to support a police force, but bureaucrats separated from the people as opposed to directly integrated with civil society will always be abusive.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#117488: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:08:41 AM

@Blue Ninja 0: I live in Israel, not the States.
@Le Garcon: Governments are formed from individuals and in the end the cop busting the speeder, the guy telling you to pay your taxes or the soldier going to war are individuals too.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:09:58 AM by desdendelle

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117489: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:10:11 AM

[up][up]Civilians relying on force to keep a government in control means that the nation has failed at it's most fundamental level.

Democracy is built on legislation and elections. Anything else is just a junta.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:10:43 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117490: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:11:00 AM

[up][up][up]There's no one more abusive towards the American people than other American people. I would sooner trust a cop miles away with a gun than my neighbor. I feel more comfort in the impersonal nature of institutions. I would seriously worry if people I knew were suddenly arming, and given a more violent avenue for their grudges and frustrations than mere words,

edited 28th Mar '16 10:13:34 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117491: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:15:11 AM

Civilians relying on force to keep a government in control means that the nation has failed at it's most fundamental level. Democracy is built on legislation and elections. Anything else is just a junta.

I'm not advocating force. I'm advocating accountability and direct participation.

There's no one more abusive towards the American people than other American people. I would sooner trust a cop miles away with a gun than my neighbor.

A cop is no less or more a person than your neighbor. Being a cop doesn't magically make a better person or a worse person.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117492: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:18:17 AM

"A cop is no less or more a person than your neighbor. Being a cop doesn't magically make a better person or a worse person."

A cop has less of a chance or knowing me, or me them. Violence, organized violence is fundamentally built on bad blood and personal conflict. I don't want to have to worry about the guy I argue with suddenly pulling out his piece and blowing my fucking brains out because he had a short fuse. Police are predictable, and their uniform is an announcement of position and intent, just as much as it is of authority (and, for that matter, the potential for its abuse). If you started arming everyone, who knows what random asshole might put a few rounds in you because he thought you looked at him funny, said something he disagreed with, were the wrong skin color...

edited 28th Mar '16 10:19:18 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117493: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:19:44 AM

A cop is properly trained and empowered by an elected, collective and accountable entity.

Taking any of that into your own private hands is unacceptable.

Oh really when?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117494: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:22:29 AM

So accountability doesn't actually require the common citizen to do anything. Okay, sure.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117495: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:23:08 AM

You can do plenty without arming yourself. This is a democracy.

Oh really when?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117496: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:26:28 AM

[up][up]Arming yourself to enact political change in this day and age is pure and empty bravado. The people that generally do go on such a path are racists, ultraconservatives, or states' rights holdouts who arm for those reasons, rather than "government by or for the people" talking points. If you really think you're going to make the country honest by training a militia to shoot up federal agents, or threatening to do so, you're dreaming and your dream is a nightmare.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:28:05 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117497: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:28:28 AM

I get not trusting fellow Americans, not the best and brightest, but it's a rather absolutist statement to say democracy inherently means most of the population must not know how to defend themselves, or else it's not democracy by definition.

And again, saying I want to shoot up the government and support rule by hillbillies.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:30:33 AM by CassidyTheDevil

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117498: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:31:22 AM

You say "democracy," I say "mob rule," "lynchings," and "gang warfare." I don't need more crowds of angry white people arming to feel safer and that my government is more accountable. All it will do is make the citizenry more savage than they already are. It won't make the government more accountable, it will simply make every idiot on the street feel more empowered and entitled to brutalize people they don't like. Life would nasty, brutish, and short, and I normally hate aping Hobbes.

"And again, saying I want to shoot up the government and support rule by hillbillies."

Arming for the purpose of "making the government accountable" generally carries the implied threat that violence will be carried out if the people don't like the policies, even it is something like a black man becoming president, gays getting the right to marry, blacks not being under Jim Crow, etc. Therefore, such a policy would be a natural attractant for hillbillies, conspiracy theorists, militiamen, etc, who often have xenophobic or homophobic views in addition to their anti-government views.

edited 28th Mar '16 10:37:57 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117499: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:37:01 AM

Again, Switzerland. You say "we're not Switzerland", and that's true, but it's hardly equivalent to mob rule and violence for a large part of population to have military training. That was actually the norm in many societies, who could hardly be called examples of mob rule.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#117500: Mar 28th 2016 at 10:37:09 AM

Fuck no, and give random drooling lumps the training to form right-wing militias? To form left-wing militias? Jesus Christ, do you want to turn the country into even more of a charnel house? When you start handing out guns to the unwashed masses and training them, both at once, you give them an incentive to shut off their brains and their hearts, and turn them into gangs.

That sounds rather Elitist.

As for me, I don't have a view. My normal Police aren't even armed.

Keep Rolling On

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