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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117426: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:52:12 PM

If we expanded civilian service options, I could somewhat agree with the need for some sort of call-up, but I just plainly disagree with the military's subculture and general political bent, and it would be absolute torture having to rub shoulders with such troglodytes for year after year until some idiot politician got such a tremendous war boner that we all get sent to some shithole and get shot.

"Is Switzerland a nation of thugs? I wasn't aware of that, but regardless they seem pretty well-off."

Switzerland has a state policy of absolute neutrality and ergo isn't nearly as gung-ho about war as the United States. It's because America is a nation of thugs that I'm leery about getting more of us involved in the military.

edited 27th Mar '16 10:54:58 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117427: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:04:43 PM

We didn't always used to be so gung-ho about war though...The old conservatives were against it.

edited 27th Mar '16 11:05:37 PM by CassidyTheDevil

Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#117428: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:05:41 PM

To be fair, I can see the benefits in mandatory but temporary service, including teaching discipline, teaching people how to properly operate a firearm and close-quarters self-defense. Though I personally would rather have conscripts be able to refuse going into outright combat even if they've done enough training.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#117429: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:08:12 PM

it would be absolute torture having to rub shoulders with such troglodytes for year after year
I feel some of that disdain isn't entirely deserved, but I understand the problems that result from the current military subculture.

Though from a different angle, that might actually lend some strength to the required service argument. Maybe this is just too optimistic, but perhaps incorporating more people who aren't the "soldier type" could amend some of those issues. Of course, that's assuming those people aren't unilaterally converted, not to mention that the military isn't exactly known for its flexibility.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117430: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:20:37 PM

The military isn't an institution that values or permits dissent at a fundamental level. You can question individual decisions, somewhat, with rank, but you're expected to be with the program and believe in the military's mission, even if it's wholly repugnant or wrongheaded, so I don't think putting a diverse array of people into the military will make it better — you'll just get a superficially diverse array of mooks.

"We didn't always used to be so gung-ho about war though...The old conservatives were against it."

The old conservatives were against European entanglement. They were perfectly okay with empire-building.

edited 27th Mar '16 11:24:21 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#117431: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:27:16 PM

Well, a number of Neo-Nazis I've had the misfortune of knowing and bumping into would certainly like it if a certain section of the military took over.

Also, a Trump supporter was put into jail for 90 days because he had made a bomb and was gonna use it to blow up a whole lot of Muslims.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117432: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:29:15 PM

Only 90 days. And not for a threat either, he had the bomb already made and everything.

Oh really when?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117433: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:31:09 PM

The old conservatives were against European entanglement. They were perfectly okay with empire-building.

Oh? Blew my mind, I trusted Wikipedia's article on the Old Right. But I suppose Wikipedia is not really reliable.

edited 27th Mar '16 11:31:43 PM by CassidyTheDevil

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#117434: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:52:41 PM

The purpose of mandatory service in the social dimension is not diversity, it is to ensure that all levels of society have a connection to the military. It becomes reliant on its reserve therefore cannot afford to use them willy-nilly, as it includes the working population of an entire country. The culture of a reserve based military is different. Not sure if the US will benefit from bastardizing their system.

The civilian option would be pretty handy though.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117435: Mar 27th 2016 at 11:53:19 PM

[up][up]Well, it depends if we're talking about the "old Right" as in Henry Cabot Lodge or as in Robert Taft.

edited 27th Mar '16 11:53:48 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#117436: Mar 28th 2016 at 3:37:29 AM

Only 90 days. And not for a threat either, he had the bomb already made and everything.

Totally not a terrorist, nuh-uh.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#117437: Mar 28th 2016 at 3:56:45 AM

Saw photos of Mexicans burning effigies in Easter Sunday in the image of Donald Trump via AP/AFP.

edited 28th Mar '16 3:56:51 AM by Ominae

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#117438: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:33:17 AM

@Cassidy The Devil:

When all healthy adults receive military training, regardless whether most people choose a career in the military (they won't, obviously), society benefits from both the wide diffusion of practical military know-how and the increased sense of civic duty.
Basic military know-how is crap (I can attest to that — that's what I got) and being in the military doesn't necessarily give you an increased sense of civic duty. Especially when you have mandatory conscription.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117439: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:34:53 AM

[up] Indeed. Going to have to call [citation needed] on the idea that mandatory military service provides a direct social benefit.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#117440: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:37:56 AM

If you expand it so other branches of the government are options then I wouldn't have an issue. Limiting it just to the military is silly though. The average person would fail at basic training.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117441: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:39:08 AM

If we're talking about Switzerland; the whole reason for their service and widespread gun ownership is because for most of the 20th century they were gonna be the Soviet Union's first stepping stone in a hypothetical invasion of the West. Arming every civilian was their way of making sure they'd last more than a few days.

Not because they wanna play cowboy or exercise their god given rights or any of that nonsense.

edited 28th Mar '16 6:39:32 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#117442: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:40:00 AM

To be fair, I can see the benefits in mandatory but temporary service, including teaching discipline, teaching people how to properly operate a firearm and close-quarters self-defense. Though I personally would rather have conscripts be able to refuse going into outright combat even if they've done enough training.

Those aren't things that the average person needs. You could make pretty much the exact same argument for say, mandatory math camp, but nobody's arguing for that.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117443: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:44:31 AM

I would spring for mandatory economics camp, but you'd have to have math camp as a prerequisite, and to be cut off from reality TV for a week beforehand to clean your mind.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#117444: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:44:55 AM

Is Switzerland a nation of thugs?
No, it's just a nation of sexists. And the beloved citizen soldiers had no compunction gunning down an organized strike in 1918 for example. They just used guys from different parts of the country (particularilly hillbillies from the conservative rural parts).

But using it in peacetime encourages a spirit of duty to the country
In those who were already patriotic maybe. In those who weren't it just breeds resentment. Do you think being forced to serve, kill and die for something you don't want to makes you feel good about the people forcing you?

You probably needn't even have to "enslave" draft dodgers, simply shun them. Using violence to catch them honestly just encourages that behavior, because people feel sympathy.
Lovely. Just as they did with my father and telling my mother she should find another man. Fuck that noise.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#117445: Mar 28th 2016 at 6:54:34 AM

I just plainly disagree with the military's subculture and general political bent, and it would be absolute torture having to rub shoulders with such troglodytes for year after year
Where did you get the impression that the entire military is Tea Party supporters? There's a fair number of democrats in the military, though overall yes the armed forces are conservative.
You can question individual decisions, somewhat, with rank, but you're expected to be with the program and believe in the military's mission, even if it's wholly repugnant or wrongheaded, so I don't think putting a diverse array of people into the military will make it better — you'll just get a superficially diverse array of mooks.
The mission at any given time tends to be decided upon by whoever is in the White House and appointed to the Pentagon - civilians, in other words. If you want military culture to change, the best way to do so is to get more diverse people into it. Tomorrow's leaders are today's mooks.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#117446: Mar 28th 2016 at 7:03:48 AM

I think this is one of those things where change actually has to come from the top down. People would resent being drafted into military because other branches of government would direct them into campaigns they might not agree with morally or politically, and the best way to curb that resentment is to have government branches that are not likely to authorize wild goose chases.

Accordingly, before we do anything about 'military culture,' I think there are mandatory prerequisites like ending the war on drugs, drastically reevaluating our approaches with traditional enemy nations like Iran, and, of course, having political parties where one side isn't insanely jingoistic. Trying to 'fix' the military without fixing the arm that wields it first will just result in a broken weapon still being wielded against the wrong targets and in the wrong way.

Nor do we have any pressing need for the draft logistically, which would be the primary justification for conscription. We have plenty of soldiers and we have plenty of tools. The problem is how we use them, not how many of them we have. Short of WWIII starting up out of nowhere, that's not going to change.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#117447: Mar 28th 2016 at 7:16:37 AM

If we're talking about Switzerland; the whole reason for their service and widespread gun ownership is because for most of the 20th century they were gonna be the Soviet Union's first stepping stone in a hypothetical invasion of the West

I thought that was the areas West of the IGB; specifically Helmstadt?

We have plenty of soldiers and we have plenty of tools. The problem is how we use them, not how many of them we have. Short of WWIII starting up out of nowhere, that's not going to change.

The US Military does have shortages in some areas, such as pilots of the UAV and fighter sort...

Keep Rolling On
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117448: Mar 28th 2016 at 7:43:21 AM

No, it's just a nation of sexists. And the beloved citizen soldiers had no compunction gunning down an organized strike in 1918 for example. They just used guys from different parts of the country (particularilly hillbillies from the conservative rural parts).

How is that supposed to be different from the US?

In those who were already patriotic maybe. In those who weren't it just breeds resentment. Do you think being forced to serve, kill and die for something you don't want to makes you feel good about the people forcing you?

Lovely. Just as they did with my father and telling my mother she should find another man. Fuck that noise.

Where do you get the idea that civic duty must entail being intolerant? It's the exact opposite, a culture which encourages citizens to be well-educated and participate in civil society, teaching respect for others, fosters tolerance.

It's when citizens are apathetic, aren't encouraged to be part of civil society, are poorly educated, and taught to feel resentment that intolerance is a major problem.

What I'm trying to say is, the Left must recover the spirit of tradition and patriotism from the people who are ruining the country with their nonsense. People inherently need tradition, but there's a vast variety of traditions that aren't rooted that sort of bullshit.

By appealing to the egalitarian, democratic, and individualist tradition of America, they can better convince traditionalists, and frame the Right as radicals corrupting America with their greed. Just call it "conservative" and "tradition".

edited 28th Mar '16 8:18:37 AM by CassidyTheDevil

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#117449: Mar 28th 2016 at 8:32:21 AM

Mandatory military service leads to a strong and active anti-war movement. Exhibit A: Vietnam. World War I also had a similar opposition, but it didn't last as long for us, and Wilson was able to effectively quash dissent with everything short of a whiff of grapeshot.

Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal vetoes "religious liberty" anti-gay bill.

“We do not have to discriminate against anyone to protect the faith-based community in Georgia.”

We have a special on flying bacon. Sadly, I can't draw any conclusions about the governor actually having a shred of principle from this, but I can compliment him on his nice little burn there.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117450: Mar 28th 2016 at 8:34:02 AM

[up] The headline I saw said that he was responding to pressure from companies who were going to withdraw their business from the state if discrimination laws went through, which creates a very weird stopped-clock situation wherein Republicans' slavish fealty to business occasionally causes them to make socially progressive political decisions.

edited 28th Mar '16 8:34:10 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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