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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#117401: Mar 27th 2016 at 4:20:42 PM

America to Establishment: Who the hell are you people?

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#117402: Mar 27th 2016 at 6:03:12 PM

I honestly don't know much about Schumer except that he's been a senator for nearly as long as I remember (way before Hillary was a senator and perhaps even before or while Bill was president) and he was the speaker at my brother's (SUNY) college graduation. And he has a tendency to launch inquiries into whatever proverbial "squeeky wheel" is making waves among his constituancy. But no serious scandals or anything.

If the recession and the Tea Party haven't managed to unseat him, I would be surprised if anyone managed to.

edited 27th Mar '16 6:12:19 PM by Elle

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117403: Mar 27th 2016 at 6:09:28 PM

Anyway, I don't think corporations are inherently evil or inherently good. They're just interest groups like any other. Large corporations can be extremely powerful interest groups, but they aren't different in principle. Sometimes the interests of a group will be aligned with society and sometimes it will be in opposition, and politics is the difficult task of balancing that out.

That's a truism, but it's rather like a root canal. It might be good for you, but people don't like it.

I do see positive trends on that front. You do see, veeery slowly, people convincing others that the method of business they're using is shooting themselves in the foot.

Although on the negative side, this is rather concerning... It's always been a fact that a too powerful and unaccountable military is a danger to government and the people. It leads to despotism, which nobody likes. That's why the old tradition is important.

I really think Switzerland has the right idea here. But it's anathema to both parties who are big on interventionism, and most critics of it simply don't want a citizen-soldier culture. Those who do mostly are rednecks.

edited 27th Mar '16 7:06:12 PM by CassidyTheDevil

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#117404: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:13:59 PM

I'm against conscription on moral grounds (it's essentially forced labor).

I'm also relatively pro-intervention, because at the end of the day the world needs a policeman. Also, with increasing globalization, what happens in other countries will inevitably start effecting us.

Leviticus 19:34
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#117405: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:16:48 PM

It probably wouldn't go too well, but if a global police force is necessary, it needs to be decoupled from any given country. Unfortunately, the only organization with anywhere enough connections, the UN, isn't exactly super useful most of the time. And an independent global police force could go bad really quickly.

[up][up] There is one rather big side effect in Switzerland to the conscription thing. It means that everyone who had military service gets a rifle, but, and this is important, all of them also get the full gun training. And bullets are really expensive in Switzerland too. The downside is a really high gun suicide rate, but the rate of gun crimes is extremely low.

It might help the American proclivity towards "Well, I wouldn't let that happen!" decrease because someone with no training or practice would be less than useless in a actual emergency situation. At the very least, most people would have some level of training.

Granted, this is coming from someone who would be rejected from the draft either way, so I'm probably not the best person to talk.

edited 27th Mar '16 7:20:33 PM by Zendervai

CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117406: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:31:53 PM

The thought of the US army acting as some global police force certainly gives plenty people warm fuzzy feelings. But as for what the military is actually doing, it doesn't really seem to be acting as a force of stability in any sense, instead causing increasing escalation because of massive collateral damage.

Again, it's extremely easy for citizens to distance themselves from the military when it's an exclusive club which very few people are part of. And likewise, it's easy for the military to distance itself from the civilian government and common populace. It's a recipe for disaster, it causes extremism to build up.

edited 27th Mar '16 7:36:40 PM by CassidyTheDevil

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117407: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:40:35 PM

The whole thing about the US military taking over the country is nothing but the left returning to the fear mongering and demonization it employed against the Military during the years after Nam, and during the 90's, when they needed cheap villains for movies. The wars and Iraq and Afghanistan made such sentiments next to impossible to express in public, but those wars are now ending. And to be frank if the Military were to launch a coup I would be glad. Democracy is overrated, China has shown us where the future lays, and our politicians have proven inept at running the nation. In fact apparently it is a thing that the US delegates to much foreign policy making authority to Congress.

Edit: Also I find the comparison of the Seals to jesuits to be highly inaccurate, given that the Jesuits were more of a soft power measure to gain converts, rather than a hard power instrument to eliminate enemies

Edit 2: And I would imagine the Military civilian distance is even greater in Europe, where not only is the army all volunteer, but the citizenry is more left wing, and their is little respect shown towards the armed forces, especially in the recent wars which were extremely unpopular.

edited 27th Mar '16 7:45:38 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117408: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:45:57 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117409: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:48:59 PM

[up] I'm not saying you are against the military, I am saying some on the left, and the article writer in particular, harbor a deeps suspicion of it, one that dates to the founding of the republic. With the end of the two recent wars, that suspicion is now allowed to be voiced in public again.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#117410: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:49:03 PM

Not so, Jack. The US military is too apolitical to actually launch a coup. If the State Department is like the host at a fancy dress ball, the military is the bouncer. Neither can do the other one's job, and neither wants the other's job.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117411: Mar 27th 2016 at 7:51:30 PM

Damit, well I guess we'll have to settle for idiocy over tyranny thentongue

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#117412: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:00:04 PM

It would take a lot for the US military to launch a coup against the president and/or Congress. And anything bad enough to make them do so would probably trigger mass protests (if it is public) well before it comes to that.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117413: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:05:31 PM

Damit, well I guess we'll have to settle for idiocy over tyranny thentongue

I have to wonder what makes people think violence, mass death, and stark poverty is preferable to a thriving citizenry with a strong economy. China has certainly shown us something, that its leaders are morons who shouldn't be emulated.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#117414: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:09:51 PM

Their economy is growing faster than ours and their citizens have jobs. That is all that matters in the end.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#117415: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:12:46 PM

...except it's not, because it's obviously not sustainable, and therefore won't make it to the end, whatever that is?

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117416: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:18:18 PM

"And to be frank if the Military were to launch a coup I would be glad. Democracy is overrated, China has shown us where the future lays, and our politicians have proven inept at running the nation."

The ignorance in this statement is astounding. That I have to explain this to you is rather ridiculous: you will never get a better deal with a military dictatorship. The people in uniform are just as moronic as the people in Congress, the people in business, or your fellow citizen — they're just trained to carry and use weaponry, which will end disastrously when combined with the military's natural position as a font of ultraconservative politics. As a concluding remark, if China is your model government, go read more: China's government is choked with corruption and backroom dealing, manifest abuses of power, and criminally negligent towards many segments of its society, when it's not downright oppressive.

"Their economy is growing faster than ours and their citizens have jobs. That is all that matters in the end."

Yeah, and when that boom-and-bust liar-liar-pants-on-fire economy enters the "bust" stage, all of that will change.

I have to wonder whether you're a very devoted troll or you really do possess views, but they are wholly repugnant and wrongheaded, whatever the intention.

edited 27th Mar '16 8:22:14 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#117417: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:25:42 PM

[up]He's our resident China alarmist, you kind of get used to it after a while.

And doesn't the CCP run the PLA instead of it being the other way around?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117418: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:36:49 PM

Anyway, as I see it issue is not with the draft, but using the draft when a large segment of society correctly sees that the war is absolutely a waste of time. That totally destroys morale.

But using it in peacetime encourages a spirit of duty to the country. You probably needn't even have to "enslave" draft dodgers, simply shun them. Using violence to catch them honestly just encourages that behavior, because people feel sympathy.

edited 27th Mar '16 8:40:38 PM by CassidyTheDevil

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#117419: Mar 27th 2016 at 8:48:28 PM

I thought arresting them had fallen out of fashion. Now the government will just make it impossible for you to get a loan and stuff.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#117420: Mar 27th 2016 at 9:36:58 PM

That is all that matters in the end.

To you maybe, but most people care about quality of life, long term economic sustainability (China is not going to surpass the US in economy size any time soon), per capita GDP, standard of living, likelihood of dying due to a random industrial accident caused by corruption, local environmental quality, access to services, leisure time and more.

As for the US as a global policemen, the US military is currently facing the same issues it faced after Somalia, after a massive screw up nobody trusts it anymore, despite it actually having a good record if one looks at things int eh long term instead of short term. Still the best work is done when countries work together, not when the US runs of on its own.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#117421: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:04:58 PM

I knew Jack was the resident China alarmist, but I didn't think he'd go as far as to advocate a military dictatorship over democracy. Nevermind that China's 'official' growth is a complete lie (it's actually much, much lower and about 3% at most), its government is rife with corruption and incompetence, and it is starting to demonstrate that it really has no idea how to actually manage the economy and stock market when things start to go sour. And wages growth is starting to force cheap labour out of China and into neighbouring countries like Vietnam and India, with some Chinese businesses even illegally importing Vietnamese workers to keep costs low. The China boom isn't going to last, and China isn't going to be the world's sweatshop forever, and with China's economy being practically a house of cards, it's quite possible for it to collapse rather suddenly. And an economic collapse would mean the destruction of the communist party, though I suspect the party would rather bring China down with it rather than be torn down without a fight.

Yeah, I think I'd rather take how the west does things than what we're seeing with the likes of China and North Korea, thank you very much.

edited 27th Mar '16 10:06:44 PM by Cronosonic

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#117422: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:13:50 PM

[up]IIRC, Jack has actually spoken negatively of the concept of individual liberty. But I'm in agreement: China is only very rarely a good role model for running a nation. If that.

[up][up]Well, if we want a compromise: Use a NATO-like organization.

edited 27th Mar '16 10:14:34 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#117423: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:41:23 PM

"Anyway, as I see it issue is not with the draft, but using the draft when a large segment of society correctly sees that the war is absolutely a waste of time. That totally destroys morale. But using it in peacetime encourages a spirit of duty to the country. You probably needn't even have to "enslave" draft dodgers, simply shun them. Using violence to catch them honestly just encourages that behavior, because people feel sympathy."

Using conscription in peacetime is useless — why bloat the military with Cannon Fodder when there are perfectly good professionals? Plus, "join the military to build proper patriotic character" is passe and rather thuggish, and makes our society myopically militaristic.

edited 27th Mar '16 10:46:19 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117424: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:46:11 PM

Using conscription in peacetime is useless — why bloat the military with Cannon Fodder when there are perfectly good professionals?

When all healthy adults receive military training, regardless whether most people choose a career in the military (they won't, obviously), society benefits from both the wide diffusion of practical military know-how and the increased sense of civic duty.

Plus, "join the military to build proper patriotic character" is passe and rather thuggish, and makes our society myopically militaristic.

Is Switzerland a nation of thugs? I wasn't aware of that, but regardless they seem pretty well-off.

edited 27th Mar '16 10:49:02 PM by CassidyTheDevil

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#117425: Mar 27th 2016 at 10:51:12 PM

The issue with the US doing that is our country's general attitude towards military service. It may not be that way in Switzerland, but we're not Switzerland.


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