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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117351: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:00:20 PM

[up][up] The first mega corps were not independent enterprises, but government-sponsored entities built to leverage the political power of the state to create market monopolies. A person who blindly touts the power of government to run industry has taken precisely the wrong lessons from history.

[up] I have decided that I will probably vote for Sanders in the Pennsylvania primary. Not because I think he's the best candidate, necessarily, but because it's a strategic vote to keep him in the race so that Hillary won't be able to coast to victory too easily. The stronger the competition, the healthier the candidate who emerges.

edited 26th Mar '16 8:01:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#117352: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:10:41 PM

The first mega corps were not independent enterprises, but government-sponsored entities built to leverage the political power of the state to create market monopolies. A person who blindly touts the power of government to run industry has taken precisely the wrong lessons from history.

Is that intended to be a correction to what I'm saying? Well, I'm fine with being wrong, but it's confusing if that is supposed to be correcting me, I thought I was saying basically that.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#117353: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:22:48 PM

[up]

I think it's less a correction than an elaboration - the South Sea Company in particular is a good example of what Fighteer's referring to (Extra History did a good series on it).

[up][up][up]

Honestly, I wound up almost resenting the tone of that article, given that Sanders' wins tonight were more than a little substantial - though that might be more my chafing at Google results giving Hillary Arizona and assigning delegates accordingly when 1% of the vote was in, but still being stuck at "23 Sanders, 8 Hillary" when it comes to 93% of Washington reporting... leaving the other 70 delegates seemingly out of the equation? As for the article itself, though, I dislike the assumption that all of the Superdelegates are getting factored in already, when a number of their States haven't even voted in the Primary/caucus season.

edited 26th Mar '16 8:27:16 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117354: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:39:59 PM

My understanding is that super delegates can vote however they want, actually, and that a lot of them have voiced support of Hillary already? I'm probably wrong about that second part, but superdelegates are in no way tied to what voters do in the primaries, I think. That's just regular delegates.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#117355: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:46:53 PM

[up][up][up]Even if big business uses cronyism to get (or maintain) its power, a government that's out of the way would still result in it abusing every avenue possible to get or maintain power. Buy out competition that's genuinely threatening, slash prices in markets that have a small competitor and then jack the prices back up when the competitor is gone, etc. A government that actually cares about the fucking people will stop this abuse. A government that's in collusion with the business will accelerate the abuse or allow new abuses (in South Korea, there are people who mockingly call their country "The Republic of Samsung"). A government that's ineffectual or nonexistent is unable to prevent abuse.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#117356: Mar 26th 2016 at 8:53:08 PM

[up][up][up]If a superdelegate has publically committed, then they're counted in the calculations. That's not unfair - though of course they can change their mind, unlike voted-in delegates.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#117358: Mar 26th 2016 at 9:07:24 PM

According to some random person on Twitter that is.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117359: Mar 26th 2016 at 9:13:05 PM

Yeah, there's nothing in that post that actually confirms that happened. If you're gonna post about things like this, it's preferable if there's something that actually prove that it's a real thing that occurred.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#117360: Mar 26th 2016 at 9:45:39 PM

Cassidy, I would suggest you read up on the East India Company which is a historic example of a government-sponsored MegaCorp, and which had controlled half of the world's trade and had its own private armies at its height.

Again, it is better when big government and big business are opposition to each other. When they work together, that ends up just screwing over the people.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#117361: Mar 26th 2016 at 10:17:21 PM

[up][up]

Well, if it was reported to the Fraud hotline, it should be easy enough to check out. So if it's true, I'm sure we'll see a news site or two publish it tomorrow, unless the cynic in me is right and they opt to quash it (if it's true, that is). Doesn't necessarily reflect on Clinton as a candidate, though.

edited 26th Mar '16 10:28:51 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117362: Mar 26th 2016 at 11:14:23 PM

Given how easy it is to virally spread rumors all over the internet, it behooves us to actually look for proof for anything we post here. The cynic in me says that anything that doesn't have any proof and is basically just a jpeg picture of a post without anything corroborating it makes me think it's a lie at best. Which I'm going to continue to think until the poster gives us something that backs it up instead of all this rumor mongering.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#117363: Mar 26th 2016 at 11:55:37 PM

[up][up][up] In the end, the East India Company was nationalised by the British Government, forming The Raj.

Again, it is better when big government and big business are opposition to each other. When they work together, that ends up just screwing over the people.

In opposition but not obstructive?

edited 26th Mar '16 11:56:52 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117364: Mar 27th 2016 at 12:44:10 AM

That actually sounds really stupid, since opposition tends to mean things like companies DON"T WANT TO OBEY ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS. The government doesn't put up stuff like that just for shits and giggles.

Frankly this idea that every thing and everyone has to be in opposition to each other just because "balance" or whatever is a terrible idea. It doesn't foster cooperation or healthy debate.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#117365: Mar 27th 2016 at 1:08:08 AM

While the government and business being in cahoots is usually a bad idea, them being actively opposed to each other leads to the exact same problem. When business and state are at odds with each other, they'll actively seek to control each other. And ultimately, the real problem at the heart of both communism and cronyism is the combination of state power and market power.

I think the best comparison is that businesses are like players in a sport, and the government is like a referee. Business are here to play the "game" that is the market, and the State is here to make sure the game's rules are followed (along with generally making sure the game is fair). The players and the ref should be friendly enough that rules are followed, but not enough to make the ref biased.

edited 27th Mar '16 1:14:02 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#117366: Mar 27th 2016 at 1:29:35 AM

And how are the players supposed to become friendly with the refs without being too friendly? What incentive do they have to follow the rules if they don't fear the consequences of breaking them? Businesses have no desire to play a friendly sport with each other, they want to win, whatever it takes. Historically they've been fairly sociopathic about this, knowingly causing grievous harm whenever they could get away with it. The idea that they'd suddenly, magically realize that they should be playing nice strikes me as hopelessly idealistic.

It's worth noting that the legal duty of a publicly traded corporation is to maximize profits for their shareholders. That is the only goal they have.

edited 27th Mar '16 1:32:55 AM by Clarste

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117367: Mar 27th 2016 at 1:30:51 AM

Quite bluntly, private industries can never be trusted. They've proven that they can't time and time again.

They need regulation and oversight.

Oh really when?
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#117368: Mar 27th 2016 at 1:56:08 AM

It's not even a matter of trust. Their job is simply to screw you over. For example, a private insurer wants to help as few people as possible. That's what it says in the job description: help as few people as possible. Because that's how they make money. It's the same with every business: provide as little service as possible while charging as much as possible (and paying their employees as little as possible). The theory is that the existence of competitors will keep them in check, but that doesn't change their motivation. If competitors can conspire to keep prices higher, they will, because why the hell wouldn't they when their explicit motive is to screw people over as much as they can? And if they can't do that, they'll conspire with the government to eliminate competitors because that's their motive. They will spend every waking moment looking for loopholes to screw people over because that's what we encourage them to do.

edited 27th Mar '16 2:04:31 AM by Clarste

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#117369: Mar 27th 2016 at 2:06:16 AM

[up][up] Not that state-owned industries are much better — especially if they were nationalised to stop them going out of business, and run themselves as a profit-making businessnote .

They also need regulation and oversightnote , as the same problems occur.

edited 27th Mar '16 2:08:07 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#117370: Mar 27th 2016 at 2:11:12 AM

It's a problem with any profit based company. Because as Clarste says, their main goal is to cheat and oppress and make money.

You're right that the same issues arise with nationalized corporations but I think that unless the nationalization is a temporary measure then any government owned business should be focused solely on services or products and not profits.

Oh really when?
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#117371: Mar 27th 2016 at 2:21:10 AM

New York seems like a long shot for Sanders, to me. Hillary did serve as Senator for New York for 8 years.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#117372: Mar 27th 2016 at 2:54:24 AM

The problem with declaring that businesses are evil (or good) is that they're morally varied. There are many different businesses with different people with different moral centers. It's more accurate to say that Hobbes Was Right in general, which is part of why anarcho-capitalism is a terrible idea.

As for for-profit being "good", I'd argue it is. Using an extreme opposite example: in a society where all resources are pooled and shared (ala Communism) what's incentivized is working as little as possible and taking off of the pooled resources as much as possible.

By contrast, a more capitalistic-leaning society would incentivize helping more people in order to get your hands on their money.

edited 27th Mar '16 2:58:48 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#117373: Mar 27th 2016 at 4:29:24 AM

Businesses aren't evil because they don't even operate on an axis of human morality. They're more like wild animals. Maybe you can keep a rabid dog on your lawn to scare away burglars, or introduce cane toads to your farms to eat pests, but you need to be careful while doing so. "Trusting" them doesn't even come into it because you shouldn't expect them to have your best interests in mind in the first place. They need to be muzzled, not trusted.

I mean, people can be good or bad, and those people are ultimately running the businesses, but the whole point of a corporation is to remove individual responsibility, and that doesn't just mean legally. Responsibility is diluted over a fictitious legal entity, and no one feels truly responsible for anything that happens. "It's not my fault, I was just collecting a paycheck." "It's not my fault for giving the order, I had to appease the shareholders." "Its not my fault, I don't run the business, I just give them my investment and ask them to increase it." They are social engines designed for exploitation of resources, because that's what we designed them for.

edited 27th Mar '16 4:30:11 AM by Clarste

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#117374: Mar 27th 2016 at 4:55:27 AM

[up]

I mean, people can be good or bad, and those people are ultimately running the businesses, but the whole point of a corporation is to remove individual responsibility, and that doesn't just mean legally. Responsibility is diluted over a fictitious legal entity, and no one feels truly responsible for anything that happens.

Then I guess you're not a fan of the concept of the limited-liability company (or partnership)?

edited 27th Mar '16 4:58:33 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#117375: Mar 27th 2016 at 4:59:41 AM

To be fair, I'm pretty sure I bombed the corporations essay question when I passed the Bar exam.

edited 27th Mar '16 5:16:50 AM by Clarste


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