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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#116851: Mar 21st 2016 at 9:51:51 AM

[up][up][up]Or we just have to temporarily increase the deficit before the insane increase in demand would eventually lead to Yuuuge tax returns from all the increased productivity, at worst. Which would be Keynesian Economics 101.

Which, I mean, really. Do I really have to explain this to this thread, of all places?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#116852: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:03:36 AM

~Ramidel: I am not talking about giving Sanders the nomination, technically.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#116853: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:13:21 AM

I was talking about his tax plan, not the nomination.

[up][up]Not sure whether you're serious or not. Basing his plans on a strengthened economy is a sign of wild optimism on Sanders' part - he assumes that what he does will generate enough increase in taxable income to offset the costs.

It makes sense, but he needs to be up front about what he plans to do if he doesn't hit fair weather.

edited 21st Mar '16 10:19:18 AM by Ramidel

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#116854: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:20:30 AM

@ Ekuran: By how much are we talking about? Doubling Federal Spending for five-ten years?

Keep Rolling On
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#116855: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:25:10 AM

Not sure if posted already, but FWIW, Bernie Sanders didn't speak at AIPAC, citing the need to be on the campaign trail, but did provide the text of a speech.

I'd guess this is sort of a compromise approach and the "need to campaign" thing is something of a Lame Excuse, since I think all of the other candidates showed up (no idea as of yet on what they spoke about/whether their speeches and Sanders will be publicized). On the other hand, the article mentions something to the effect that unlike previously, speakers had to be on-site and couldn't deliver speeches remotely, so who knows?

edited 21st Mar '16 10:36:29 AM by Hodor2

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#116856: Mar 21st 2016 at 10:41:52 AM

What is it with the left and naming their news organizations after murderous psychopaths who lost. First the Young Turks now this. And if these fucks win the left's war of ideas all I have to say is "goodbye left."
The article does say that the name is a deliberate provocation, and it's actually in reference to the Black Jacobins of Haiti's revolution.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#116858: Mar 21st 2016 at 11:10:08 AM

The article I posted seems to indicate that it wasn't an option to anyone this time around- not that they denied to Bernie Sanders because he's Bernie Sanders.

And looking at your article, it indicates that as well.

Misleading headline is misleading.

edited 21st Mar '16 11:11:33 AM by Hodor2

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#116860: Mar 21st 2016 at 11:18:37 AM

Just saw your edit. I appreciate the clarification. I was going to see if the text of Sanders' speech had been posted and I see that seemingly every news outlet frames the "story" in a misleading way- presumably to frame him as an opponent of Israel (which depending on the news source is a positive or negative thing).

I doubt he was being specifically targeted since the policy was against any of the U.S. Presidential candidates speaking remotely. It would be different if say Kasich was allowed to do so and Sanders wasn't.

No idea on the decision though. Seems stupid as I'd assume in general that attendees at any event would rather listen to a teleconference-style speech than no speech at all.

edited 21st Mar '16 11:21:07 AM by Hodor2

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#116861: Mar 21st 2016 at 11:45:06 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] I Forgot about that. But still, the whole deliberate provocation things is so fucking childish, which makes sense given that most of the things writers and readers are little more than children.

edited 21st Mar '16 11:57:20 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#116862: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:32:31 PM

What is it with the left and naming their news organizations after murderous psychopaths who lost. First the Young Turks now this.

Because that's a fair way of summarizing both organizations' histories, and because two examples make a trend. Tu sais ce qu'elle te dit, la gauche?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#116863: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:44:29 PM

Honestly, the biggest "magic happens" any of the tax plans that call for an increase has is trying to barrel said increases through the devout opposition that is the Republican Congress.

Oliver had a good segment regarding their opposition to Garland last night, too.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#116864: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:46:44 PM

The Jacobin piece is actually kinda important. The magazine, questionable name aside, is pretty much the leading American Left Wing publication in terms of being actually "Left Wing". (The owner/founder is pretty much a hard leftist/communist, but he realizes you can't get to Workers seizing the means of production without building up a Democratic Socialist base first. i.e. People like Sanders and similar need to be the transition.)

And Sanders' campaign has basically set up the magazine (which is actually rather new apparently, only a bit older than Vox), to massively expand its readership and influence the left for years to decades to come.

Yglesias made a similar point, apparently. Not sure which article, but basically Sanders-esque Democratic Socialism is very very likely the future of the Democratic voter base. Much of Hillary's winning at the moment is lack of name recognition of her opponent, and her own institutional advantages and a relatively strong history.

Basically: Democratic Socialism has won the war of ideas, what we have is institutional lag.

Ah, here's the Yglesias Piece:

Clinton-style Centrist Economics is built on a castle of Sand. Basically Hillary has the advantage of institutional trust with African Americans and Labor Unions are willing to square the circle with her trusting she'll stick to enough Labor commitments. But it's very very likely the Unions, A As and younger voters in a future voting cycle are VERY VERY likely to bolt to the left.

edited 21st Mar '16 12:54:40 PM by PotatoesRock

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#116865: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:49:54 PM

[up]

They're still going with that abortion of a name? Democratic Socialism?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#116866: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:55:34 PM

Blame Sanders. That's the term he's laid out. Socialist policies by Democratic means (i.e. voting them in). Thus Democratic Socialism.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#116867: Mar 21st 2016 at 12:57:04 PM

Isn't that supposed to mean the same thing as "Social Democrats"?

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#116868: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:00:15 PM

[up][up] Hmmm...does Sanders really mean this?

Democratic socialism is a political system wherein there is democratic control of a socialist economic system. It thus combines political democracy with social ownership of significant elements of the means of production. Sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", the adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish itself from the Marxist-Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic.

[up] Probably, even though they're not the same thing.

edited 21st Mar '16 1:00:44 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#116869: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:00:52 PM

He might be avoiding using the word Democrat without adjective-ing it because Sanders refuses to list himself as a Democrat, because the Democrat Party Elite are too right wing for his tastes.

But yes, yes it is, at least for Americans.

Long story short: The Dem Voterbase is a lot warmer to socialist policies via democratic process than it has been in 40-50 years.

Democratic socialism is a political system wherein there is democratic control of a socialist economic system. It thus combines political democracy with social ownership of significant elements of the means of production. Sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", the adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish itself from the Marxist-Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic.
Yeah. Sanders is technically Social Democrat

But it seems to be an either-or with how Sanders is rolling the term around.

Basically, what Sanders is after is taking the Capitalist society the country has, but install a lot more strengthened Socialist/Safety Net programs to protect workers, the infirm, the young, etc. So that if their lives take a down turn, they don't get completely assfucked.

edited 21st Mar '16 1:05:04 PM by PotatoesRock

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#116870: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:22:50 PM

[up]

Just wait till you get glorious social democrat bureaucracy. Getting assfucked (in triplicate) is proper procedure.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#116871: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:30:46 PM

Depends on implementation. A proper Welfare State doesn't ever claim to be glorious. Glory is inefficient, flashy, expensive, wasteful. Welfare is all about effectiveness and efficiency.

They're still going with that abortion of a name? Democratic Socialism?

I cannot conceive of a proper democracy that isn't socialist. How else are the least wealthy meant to have leverage, power, to have their voices heard? Also, how else can a society end up when the working and "middle" classes don't have a disproportionately small voice?

edited 21st Mar '16 1:34:48 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#116872: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:31:22 PM

[up][up] Means testing, and form filling everywhere.

[up]

Welfare is all about effectiveness and efficiency.

Until Bureaucratic Inertia takes hold, sometimes that even the Bureaucracy itself barely tolerates...

edited 21st Mar '16 1:33:04 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#116873: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:36:31 PM

There's ways around that. Checks and balances. Oversight. A vigilant and free press. An active and informed citizenry.

And it's not like private enterprise is free of the very same problem.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#116875: Mar 21st 2016 at 1:58:32 PM

[up]

And then their Presidential candidates wonder why the electorate's turned against them...

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"

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