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Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#115676: Mar 13th 2016 at 9:53:00 PM

Actually listening to her statement makes it clear that she's intent on replacing coal jobs with jobs in renewable energy, so yes, "I want to replace your jobs with better jobs" is exactly what she's saying.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#115677: Mar 13th 2016 at 9:58:59 PM

Any clever Spin Doctor is going to turn it into a "You didn't build that"-ism.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#115678: Mar 13th 2016 at 10:09:27 PM

A Helpful Guide to Criticizing Hillary Clinton from the Left. I'm seeing a lot of messages like this lately. Is it just me, or is there a lot more progressive introspection among Democrats this year - a lot of watching our message carefully and arguing about what we're going to be and do?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#115679: Mar 13th 2016 at 10:19:25 PM

And one of my friends, formerly sane if conservative, has decided to swallow the old "Muslims are 25 times more likely to commit terrorist acts than other groups" BS that someone misreading a New York Times poll posted on the Internet. I've been throwing other reports and counter stats at him, but if anyone here has any similar information I'd appreciate it.

Of course since he's also trying to tell me Trump isn't racist, I'm not sure to what degree he's listening, but I've got to try. I'll be damned if I see a friend, who while right-wing, was never overtly racist or fascistic (he is/was a genuine libertarian) go down the Trump rabbit hole.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#115680: Mar 13th 2016 at 10:37:32 PM

[up][up] I think it is just people who have valid, reasonable criticisms of Hillary Clinton in regards to her political positions being rightfully offended at being lumped in with Trump and Cruz supporters. For the majority of people who support Bernie Sanders, Hillary is only the better choice when compared to the Republican candidates.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#115681: Mar 13th 2016 at 11:04:38 PM

So I just caught up on this thread, and I feel the need to say something on the "berniebro" bullshit.

They exist. I've noticed their comments online in passing several times, mostly on Twitter. They're basically just a subset of anti-"SJW" brogressives, i.e. they only support the economic aspect of progressivism while they actively fight against progressive social movements. They really are not a significant political force, just a loud and obnoxious crowd online who are often harassers anyway (like usually when I see them on Twitter it's only because I'm curious about the context of a tweet thread where I already have one or more of the participants blocked thanks to blockbots and open it up in a private/incognito window).

Though the most memorable pro-Sanders harassment I've witnessed was someone I follow on Twitter being told by a tankie that he deserves to be put in a gulag for voting Clinton.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#115682: Mar 13th 2016 at 11:09:57 PM

Yeah, while Bern's my second-least favorite candidate (Trump being the first), I find the whole "Bernie and/or most of his followers are bigots" idea to be downright absurd. Sure, no misogynist is going to vote Hillary, but that doesn't mean not voting for Hillary makes you sexist.

Leviticus 19:34
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#115683: Mar 13th 2016 at 11:14:47 PM

I just think it's ridiculous to conflate personal experience via social media with the hundreds of thousands of people who support a candidate. Most of them probably don't even have an online presence.

Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#115684: Mar 13th 2016 at 11:35:01 PM

Yeah, there's a reason I said that they're not a significant political force. But given Silas weighed in with his experience of not having seen them and that I'm getting increasingly annoyed with the way they're being brought up like their alleged existence is a pure smear tactic, plus having to catch up to a few pages mostly consisting of arguing over such, I felt the need to actually say something about what I've experienced and why I don't give them the time of day.

Edit: This could probably make a hell of a lot more sense but at half past one in the morning after a long day at work my brain knows words, it has the best words :P

edited 13th Mar '16 11:36:27 PM by Sixthhokage1

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#115685: Mar 14th 2016 at 12:44:43 AM

It helps that a lot of the people who call them "smears" probably don't frequent hives of scum and villainy like Twitter and Reddit.

Like I said, they have an outsized voice because you can't punch someone through the Internet.

edited 14th Mar '16 12:45:44 AM by Ramidel

darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#115686: Mar 14th 2016 at 1:05:15 AM

The term itself is a textbook example of a smear tactic, designed to conflate said bad elements with Sanders and the rest of Sanders' supporters, and was literally coined and propagated by exactly the same opinion column writers who pushed the nearly identical "Obama Boys" smear in 2008. Rather than lending credence to such a denigrating, catch-all term, then, why not simply use a couple more precise adjectives in your descriptions, such as "opinionated assholes on Twitter"?

edited 14th Mar '16 1:08:00 AM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#115687: Mar 14th 2016 at 2:44:01 AM

The term itself is a textbook example of a smear tactic, designed to conflate said bad elements with Sanders and the rest of Sanders' supporters, and was literally coined and propagated by exactly the same opinion column writers who pushed the nearly identical "Obama Boys" smear in 2008

This. Bigots exist at every camp, no matter how little sense it makes for them to be there. But inventing a special slur like "Berniebros" creates the (convenient for the Clinton campaign, no wonder they use it) assosiation that Bernie voters are especially and uniquely bigoted, which is fucking wrong, ok?

I don't buy for even a second anyone's claims of "No, no, I don't believe that!" after using the slur. Well, they're still contributing to this. You'd think voters of a supposed progressive(very heavy emphasis on "supposed") would not be this tone-deaf to the stereotying they are causing.

edited 14th Mar '16 3:03:51 AM by Luminosity

Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#115688: Mar 14th 2016 at 2:45:47 AM

Really, "opinionated assholes on [insert social media platform here]" should be the label for anyone who deserves to be ignored for being an asshole, it robs them of any association or legitimacy. Hell, I'm probably gonna start using it for That One Group That Should Not Be Named.

edited 14th Mar '16 2:46:10 AM by Cronosonic

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#115689: Mar 14th 2016 at 3:42:45 AM

It does seem to be particularly vociferous from Bernie's guys, though. Even Howard Dean is fed up of it, probably because of the stick he's got about his SD vote and refusing to endorse Bernie despite admitting to like him.

edited 14th Mar '16 3:56:33 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#115690: Mar 14th 2016 at 3:55:01 AM

Yes, refuse to endorse candidate despite him sharing similar ideals, because of a small subsection of supporters the candidate himself has denounced and told to politely fuck off.

Wonderful idea, Dean. Wonderful.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#115691: Mar 14th 2016 at 3:55:50 AM

[up][up]Bull. Fucking. Shit.

I'm going to parade this link until Clinton camp gets off its high horse of hypocrisy and realises their opposition is not especially evil. So... forever.

edited 14th Mar '16 3:55:57 AM by Luminosity

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#115692: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:03:07 AM

[up][up]

Or, he can like a candidate and not want to endorse him. Especially if he isn't a member of Dean's party.

You're mixing up the timeline anyway - Dean said months ago he was endorsing Clinton, it's the reaction to that - ie, the substantial nuisance factor of not 'feeling the Bern' - that has doubly put him off.

[up]

Meanwhile, Bernie bros's lack of empathy has actually cost him votes among minority voters. You can pretend that your link, which dishonestly conflates all the criticism ER got with Hillary supporters, proves that Hillary is just as bad, but the testimony of women who have criticized Sanders suggests this is not the case.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:05:47 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#115693: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:04:46 AM

[up] >cosmopolitan

Nuff said.

And your other link is "a Bernie supporter said"... A Bernie supporter said. A. A. Without any proof it even happened.

And you talk to me about "dishonesty". Yeah, right.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:07:02 AM by Luminosity

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#115694: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:07:15 AM

Whilst Medium, a blogging platform on which literally any wanker can go and write, is a peerless source. Nice cognitive dissonance.

Do you even read these links? The story quoted Dot Scott, the head of the Charleston branch of the NAACP. Unless you're suggesting she was lying - for which you have no evidence - then I don't see what your issue is.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:10:56 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#115695: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:10:49 AM

[up] A Bernie supporter. A. A. As if one. As if one guy. As if one person out of so fucking many.

You seriously just used "one guy said that" as defense of your stereotyping, then claimed I'm the dishonest one.

Also "any wanker can go and write" is different from "a long and volumous history of writing nothing but bullshit".

edited 14th Mar '16 4:12:39 AM by Luminosity

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#115696: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:16:24 AM

As for Dean, I think he certainly invited flak (which does not justify harassment) in his comment on super delegates, and which definitely isn't helped by his being a lobbyist for health insurance companies and standing against single-payer health-care (which Dean once supported). Whether you think he's a sellout or saw the light is up to you.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:18:07 AM by Eschaton

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#115697: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:24:46 AM

(Storify, Billmon) Party Political Control and the Trump Crisis: Some dangerous constitutional chickens may be coming home to roost

Basically the American Government's checks and balances aren't designed to deal with solidification of one party becoming the 'Presidential Party' (i.e. The Democrats), and one party becoming the Legislative Party (i.e. The Republicans), as it starts creating pressure cooker issues on the political system where the Democrats' voters want more control of the legislative agenda of what gets paid and past, and Republicans (or at least the Trump end of the GOP) increasingly want an unrestrained executive with nigh unlimited power.

Ties into Matthew Yglesias' "American Democracy is Doomed" article, which pretty much argues a split party Legislature and Executive like the US is bound to hit a wall, and the system cracks or collapses at some point from ever increasing polarization and system stress.

(Politico) The Path to Convention Chaos: If Trump loses Florida or Ohio, the GOP’s set for a quagmire in Cleveland. Here’s how it happens.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#115698: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:26:03 AM

[up][up]

Except its somebody actually associated with his campaign, so the opposite of one guy, but someone on who's behaviour Bernie can be judged.

Yes, Medium is a massively credible source. The Gamer Gate and British Islamist blogs give it that sheen of brilliance. /s

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#115699: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:32:17 AM

Except its somebody actually associated with his campaign, so the opposite of one guy, but someone on who's behaviour Bernie can be judged.

One guy is not the opposite of one guy. Unless you're claiming the (alleged, mind you) behavior of a single campaign worker denounces the entire campaign, in which case... do I really have to bring up the Obama turban photo? Really?

Yes, Medium is a massively credible source. The Gamer Gate and British Islamist blogs give it that sheen of brilliance. /s

Missing the point so much it's in another galaxy now.

Unless you're claiming the author specifically is lying about... her concerns with politicizing harrassment as something exclusive to Bernie voters when the evidence clearly shows existence of harrassment from "Clintonbros", that's consistently and conveniently ignored in this discussion.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:34:06 AM by Luminosity

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#115700: Mar 14th 2016 at 4:50:36 AM

Bernie's problem with black voters is well known, and the fact that 'one guy' affiliated to his campaign thought that a black voter would be convinced by 'Senator Sanders is for welfare' is more reflective of his campaign than random internet supporters.

As regards credibility of sources: you brought that up, not me. Unless you are claiming that the author and people linked in the Cosmo piece are lying, then why bother? Except, of course, that you didn't like what you read.

I never argued the Medium author was lying, what I pointed out was that the bulk of the harassment there can't be determined to have come from Clinton supporters, unlike the abuse people get for not supporting Bernie, and the evidence she brought didn't support the conclusions she drew.

edited 14th Mar '16 4:52:37 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

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