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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#115226: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:17:45 AM

Yeah, if Trump somehow gets in the US can kiss its democracy card goodbye. Unless he gets impeached when he tries to pull stuff that would make Jim Crow and the Japanese Internment look tame.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:20:56 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#115227: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:23:05 AM

@Azsur: The outcome of a given research project isn't known in advance, and while hundreds of millions of dollars are indeed wasted, there's often no way to know if a given avenue of research will yield anything useful, and when it does, the potential profits dwarf the money wasted on dead ends.

Thinking again on the issue, I've actually revised my position, it is in fact quite comparable to politics in America in that regard; there's no guarantee a politician would support legislation that favors you if you support their campaign financially, but you stand to gain from successfully influencing politicians that the cases where they don't want to play ball can be written off as just another operating expense.

As far as examples go, well, you can compare how the American electoral system works to the rest of the first world (most of it at least); in many EU countries (most in fact), there's strict limits on how much a candidate can spend on advertising (or just spend on their campaign in general) in certain/all mediums, and how much airtime they've allowed to have. Politicians are still allowed to take campaign contributions, and in some cases there aren't even limits on the amount that can be donated, but it doesn't give them nearly as big of an advantage as it does in the United States, where money spent is by far the most accurate predictor of the outcome of an election.

[up] Trump wouldn't be nearly that bad; true it'd be an international embarrassment, and nothing good would get done, but the American system is, despite its flaws, robust enough to survive a truly awful president now and again. Now don't get me wrong, my expectation of a Trump presidency would as bad or worse than George W. Bush's presidency, but it wouldn't be the end of democracy unless people continued to support demagogues like him.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:46:04 AM by CaptainCapsase

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#115228: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:30:54 AM

Putin most likely has Clinton's E-mails, so even if Sanders were more naive in his approach to Russia I'd rather go for him than someone who can be blackmailed.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#115229: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:33:29 AM

So now we shouldn't vote for Clinton because the Soviet Union—excuse me, Russia—has her emails and will blackmail her into their eeevil bidding. The 1950s are calling. They'd like their Red Scare tactics back.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:33:48 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#115230: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:35:17 AM

[up] More that (in my opinion) continuing to fight the cold war decades after its ended is not a particularly good strategy for anyone other than military contractors. Especially when America's time as a superpower* is coming to an end.

*As opposed to first among the great powers, and even that can't be expected to last beyond the 21st century due to the demographic disparities between American and other emerging powers.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:39:48 AM by CaptainCapsase

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#115231: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:38:14 AM

So according to local news here the Aliso Canyon/Porter Ranch methane spill is finally plugged. Wonder how much greenhouse gas has been released in these few months.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#115232: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:39:34 AM

A Romanian hacker calling himself Guccifer hacked into the AOL account of Clinton's secret adviser Sidney Blumenthal and in March of 2013 leaked to Russia Today four e-mails containing intelligence on Libya that Blumenthal sent to Hillary Clinton. That's what started this entire mess.

Does no one here think that Russian intelligence agencies didn't at least attempt to crack her server after that?

edited 10th Mar '16 11:41:28 AM by SolipsistOwl

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#115234: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:43:41 AM

Cows are a big contributor to global warming, they release massive amounts of methane into the atmosphere which is many times more harmful than CO 2.

It is strange that environmentalists almost never talk about this, but I think getting rid of cows should be the pillar of environmental policy along renewable energy and efficient resource use.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#115235: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:44:38 AM

I'm gonna tell you right now, if some nobody from Romania can do it then the Russians have already had that information for a loooooong time.

Their intelligence agencies are one of the few things that were untouched when the Soviet Union fell apart, they're just as good as ever. If the public knows about it any way, it's old news to them.

Oh really when?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#115236: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:46:47 AM

[up][up][up][up]I don't know what anyone else here thinks. What I do know is you're the only one who seems to be assuming that they a) tried to crack her servers, b) were successful in doing so, c) actually found something of import, and d) will successfully use said materials of import to blackmail her, despite there being no evidence that they have done so as a of yet, and the material in question being four years out of date by the earliest point she could be in the Oval Office. That last one being the biggest assumption of all of them.

But yeah. The Russians are coming for Clinton. Sure. Vote Sanders, his Jesus powers will fend off Putin.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:47:30 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#115237: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:48:39 AM

AP FACT CHECK: Eye-popping claims about Sanders

How can it be that Bernie Sanders could stand on the side of vigilantes on the border, against the auto industry bailout, against an immigration overhaul that would have eased the plight of people in the country illegally? Can this be the liberal senator his supporters know and love?

It can be because of the politically perilous way legislation works in Congress, as bill after bill becomes a grab bag of the good and bad — as lawmakers see it. Hillary Clinton took full advantage of that in the latest Democratic debate, pointing out votes by her opponent that are eye-raising on the surface while brushing off complexities that help explain them.

A look at some claims in the debate and how they compare with the facts:

CLINTON: While in the Senate, she voted for a bill that later provided the money to bail out the auto industry. "The money that rescued the auto industry was in that bill," which she chided Sanders for voting against.

SANDERS: That bill "was the bailout of the recklessness, irresponsible and illegal behavior of Wall Street."

THE FACTS: Sanders is correct in the main. The bill passed in October 2008 provided $700 billion to bail out big banks. But some of that money was later used for a bailout of Chrysler and General Motors. When Clinton voted for the Wall Street package and Sanders voted against it, neither knew money would be shifted to the auto industry.

When legislation came up separately that proposed explicit support for the auto industry, both voted for it. Then in January 2009, shortly before Barack Obama became president, lawmakers tried to block the release of a second phase of the package approved earlier for the Wall Street rescue. Sanders backed this effort, which failed. At this point, it was known that some of the money would go to the auto industry as well, although it was not known how much.

___

CLINTON: Sanders "stood with the Minutemen vigilantes in their ridiculous, absurd efforts to, quote, hunt down immigrants."

SANDERS: "No, I do not support vigilantes, and that is a horrific statement, an unfair statement to make."

THE FACTS: She was right about his vote, perhaps a little over the top in characterizing it. In 2006, as a member of the House running for the Senate, Sanders voted for an obscure and largely symbolic amendment that sought to prohibit Washington from giving information to foreign governments about the activities of a civilian group operating along the border.

At the time, some hard-liners against immigration were concerned that U.S. officials were tipping off the Mexican government about movements of the civilian Minuteman group that was patrolling the border for people crossing illegally.

Sanders said it was an unimportant amendment "supported by dozens and dozens of members of the House which codified existing legislation." But it stands as an example of lawmakers backing something they might not like — or might not have given enough thought to — in order to achieve larger goals in a bill. As it was, the amendment did not survive and the issue was mostly forgotten — but not by Clinton.

___

CLINTON: "I think our best chance was in 2007, when Ted Kennedy led the charge on comprehensive immigration reform. We had Republican support. We had a president willing to sign it. I voted for that bill. Senator Sanders voted against it."

SANDERS: "Well, you have guest-worker programs that have been described by the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the important institutions in this country who studies these issues, as guest-worker programs akin to slavery... They were cheated. They were abused. They were humiliated."

THE FACTS: Clinton is right that Sanders opposed the immigration liberalization, but that doesn't make him an opponent of that goal. As he explained it, the abusive guest-worker program contained in the legislation was so odious that he could not back the broader bill.

What Sanders did not make clear, though, was that his position also reflected concerns of labor unions that the temporary workers would drive down wages and cost Americans jobs. His stance was not all about the plight of the immigrant laborers, as a video played at the debate showed.

___

CLINTON: Defending her use of a private email server, now the subject of an FBI investigation into whether it was improperly used for classified information, said "it was not prohibited. It was not in any way disallowed... I did not send or receive any emails marked classified at the time... I asked all my emails to be made public."

THE FACTS: Clinton is correct that when she began using the private email system as secretary of state in 2009, federal law did not explicitly prohibit doing so. But her own department warned its employees against the use of private email to conduct government business because it could compromise classified materials and be subject to hacking.

In the year since Clinton turned over 55,000 pages of emails to the State Department, the agency has since censored hundreds of those emails because they contained classified materials.

And when Clinton agreed last March to turn over "all" of her emails to the State Department and urged their release, she acted only after her aides had combed through all of her private emails, withholding messages that they deemed to be personal. Those decisions weren't made by federal records specialists who normally decide which materials need to be turned over.

Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#115238: Mar 10th 2016 at 11:58:52 AM

Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) will become the first sitting senator to endorse Ted Cruz.

edited 10th Mar '16 11:59:07 AM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#115239: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:01:50 PM

Isn't Lee already a hard core Tea Partier? No wonder that he'd support Mr-Tea-Party, Shut-The-Government-Down Cruz.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#115240: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:05:33 PM

Party is going behind Cruz, since they at least can predict him even if they despise him. That and Rubio is imploding and Kasich is a minnow.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#115241: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:07:16 PM

Yeah, Lee's always been Cruz' partner in crime and legit may be the guy's only friend in the Senate, where he's otherwise loathed even by his own caucus.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#115242: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:11:05 PM

@Cassidy The Devil: You are never going to convince meat eaters to give up beef, burgers and milk, and you are never going to convince vegetarians to kill off most of the cow population. It's sad, but true.

edited 10th Mar '16 12:12:11 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#115243: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:19:07 PM

Consider for a moment the reason why you are arguing

'Cuz I feel like it.

DING.

Thanks, Trebek, I will take "Who the fuck cares" for $500 and add this funny bit.

Trump is indeed rallying people who have never voted to go vote. Against him. More Latinos than ever are seeking citizenship just to vote against him.

Over all, naturalization applications increased by 11 percent in the 2015 fiscal year over the year before, and jumped 14 percent during the six months ending in January, according to federal figures. The pace is picking up by the week, advocates say, and they estimate applications could approach one million in 2016, about 200,000 more than the average in recent years.

Sounds great. But I doubt this will send Trump into any sort of (his)panic

edited 10th Mar '16 12:19:28 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#115244: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:23:55 PM

[up][up]Nah, you can, it just takes time and effort. It's a big cultural change. In the meantime...

[up]GROAN.

edited 10th Mar '16 12:24:43 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#115245: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:25:17 PM

I just hope these people end up getting official citizenship by the time November arrives, because the Latino community could end up becoming the deciding vote for whether or not Trump ends up coming into office.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#115246: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:40:21 PM

'Cuz I feel like it.

DING.

Thanks, Trebek, I will take "Who the fuck cares" for $500 and add this funny bit.

I only mention this because I am aware that the method of arguing you're using tends to, overwhelmingly, add absolutely nothing of value to either yourself or other people. In fact, the opposite.

But if you're aware of that and simply don't care, that's okay. I just know that sometimes a gentle suggestion can help people reorient themselves. But this only works for people with a certain personality.

Just be aware that you make yourself look like an ass and "nobody cares" goes both ways.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#115247: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:46:05 PM

RE: "Trump says 'Islam hates us'."

Accidentally Accurate since, when coming from Trump's mouth, "us" inherently includes him, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Muslims hate the shit out of the guy, but not for the reasons he claims they do.

RE: Methane leak - according to That Other Wiki, it's likely going to be an even bigger impact than the Deepwater Horizon (aka BP) oil spill.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#115248: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:48:03 PM

Given how an entire half of American voters right now outright deny man-made climate change, do you really think getting rid of something as tied to America as hamburgers and steak is going happen within our lifetimes? Focus on the environmental issues that can be won first, as well as making artificial beef or vegan beef that has less of an impact on the environment, tastes just as good, and is less expensive than the real deal.

Then again, we will have people who will desire all-natural beef.

edited 10th Mar '16 12:49:26 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#115249: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:48:18 PM

Trump isn't the most Authoritarian Candidate, but he is the most fascist, with regards to voters.

Meanwhile, Sanders is the most anti-elite (rich) Candidate, but his voters loathe Authoritarianism and have respect for experts (but don't give a shit about traditional views about "America")

Obama's Foreign Policy explained:

  • He's an optimist (believing in the fact things trend towards American-ish values)
  • Who follows pragmatic foreign policy (i.e. don't get stuck in quagmires)
  • Who refuses to join the Washington Beltway in tilting at windmills.

(Vox, Matthew Yglesias) "How Bernie Sanders convinced me about free college"

Basically, Yglesias argues that the Democrats have gotten a bit too wonk-ish in their presentations of laws and policies, for their own good. (Basically the ACA suffers a lack of the grasp of what it does vs. 'simplier' plans like Social Security and Medicare, and the party would do better trying to lay things out in a more simplistic presentation.)

Or: Keep It Simple, Stupid

Vox: Twilight of the Neocons

Meet the government guys standing up for franchise workers and contractors: How labor agencies are targeting worker bargaining power in an increasingly outsourced world.

(i.e. The NLRB is trying to nail down franchises like Mc Donalds as being joint employers.)

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#115250: Mar 10th 2016 at 12:54:12 PM

Seeing a headline that says that Florida has 99 delegates, and it's a winner-take-all state.

While I realize that the needed delegates numbers in the thousands, it's still a scary thought to have, say, Cruz winning them.

Yes, I'm one of those "Cruz is worse than Trump" people.


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