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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#113701: Feb 29th 2016 at 10:09:09 AM

It depends partially on how we define freedom. I, for example, wouldn't define anarchy as freedom, since technically in an anarchy nobody has any legally-enforced rights per say. Same principle applies to the marketplace.

I'd also argue that One Nation Under Copyright is technically not a capitalist society, but rather a sort of privatized communism which is why Stalinist Dictatorships and Banana Republics are sometimes virtually interchangeable.

Here's a good video (from a capitalist) arguing why crony capitalist is un-beuno:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxXHh-p-O4

Leviticus 19:34
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#113702: Feb 29th 2016 at 10:11:01 AM

Neoconservatives Declare War on Donald Trump

Donald Trump’s runaway success in the GOP primaries so far is setting off alarm bells among neoconservatives who are worried he will not pursue the same bellicose foreign policy that has dominated Republican thinking for decades.

Neoconservative historian Robert Kagan — one of the prime intellectual backers of the Iraq war and an advocate for Syrian intervention — announced in the Washington Post last week that if Trump secures the nomination “the only choice will be to vote for Hillary Clinton.”

Max Boot, an unrepentant supporter of the Iraq war, wrote in the Weekly Standard that a “Trump presidency would represent the death knell of America as a great power,” citing, among other things, Trump’s objection to a large American troop presence in South Korea.

Trump has done much to trigger the scorn of neocon pundits. He denounced the Iraq war as a mistake based on Bush administration lies, just prior to scoring a sizable victory in the South Carolina GOP primary. In last week’s contentious GOP presidential debate, he defended the concept of neutrality in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is utterly taboo on the neocon right.

edited 29th Feb '16 10:15:07 AM by SolipsistOwl

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#113703: Feb 29th 2016 at 10:12:07 AM

@Native Jovian -

And right now we DO have a split within the democratic party forming between the harder left and what are now being called Neoliberals, the Dem establishment. We have, at the grassroots level, "berniebros" wanting to push that crack wide (despite Bernie himself not wanting it) by going after Hil supporters and party undecideds. We have a split now in the DNC leadership thanks to Boss Schultz and others as represented by Tulsi Gabbard.

Only reason we're not seeing moderate dems getting primaried out is because the Dem party as a whole puts so little emphasis on House and Senate seats, for one. For two, that may actually start to change after this election. Bernie can't get anything done if he wins without a pliant house, so his supporters will focus more on the house than the party itself does. And if he loses, his supporters will want to get power by other means, now that they know they have more than a snowball's chance as a movement. Finally, this is a presidential election year, so primaring-out candidates isn't going to get focus...thats usually for the cycles there isn't a presidential contest.

And I said this is circa 2010 GOP. Comparing Dem prospects now to GOP prospects now is not possible so your statement about vicious battles between a dozen candidates isn't relevant to my point.

As for a radical wing undercutting the mainstream, we don't know yet. Plenty here on this thread have already stated how that can happen. It hasn't as yet, but thats because Bernie is still in the race. We won't know one way or another for a few more months. To dismiss it outright is premature.

Bernie supporters giving in to Hil should he not get the nom, I wouldn't bet on it. Just have to look in this very thread to see that even beyond Trump crossovers, there is a significant part of his supporters who will not go to her. She has an enthusiasm problem and has always had it.

Democrats are holding it together only out of momentum right now. Not saying they're doomed exactly, as they have time to fix it (much like the GOP did a few years ago), but I'm not confident they will in time.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#113704: Feb 29th 2016 at 10:26:22 AM

@ Kayeka: Although, outside the US, Wal Mart (or the supermarkets they acquired) are not always the largest chain. It doesn't always work.

Keep Rolling On
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#113705: Feb 29th 2016 at 10:36:32 AM

I've heard Wal-Mart is actually running into problems. Not sure about that, though.

Corporations aren't necessarily amoral organizations dedicated solely to profit (though they can be), but profits are obviously very important for a business to grow and survive or accomplish anything.

Leviticus 19:34
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#113706: Feb 29th 2016 at 11:30:50 AM

Bernie supporters giving in to Hil should he not get the nom, I wouldn't bet on it. Just have to look in this very thread to see that even beyond Trump crossovers, there is a significant part of his supporters who will not go to her. She has an enthusiasm problem and has always had it.
While we do have several Bernie supporters in-thread, I don't remember any of us saying we wouldn't support Hillary for this election, just that we wouldn't be enthusiastic about it. We'll rejoice in our votes for her about as much as King Arthur eating Sir Robin's minstrels.

edited 29th Feb '16 11:33:16 AM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#113707: Feb 29th 2016 at 11:33:16 AM

Basically they're running into a very common issue a lot of their sort of companies are:

The people that work for them are also the people most likely to buy from them, but they don't have enough money to keep Wal-Mart up. Basically this is a common issue for a lot of companies: They've been so busy hollowing out wages and depressing them that their own workers can no longer afford the goods of their companies. (This is arguably one of the reasons subconsciously Ron Paul said Sanders was pro Free Market, besides keeping the playing field level, Sanders also is the one supporting workers buying stuff with a fair amount of money).

Speaking of:

Robert Reich: An Open Letter to the Republican Establishment

(Basically Reich pointing out Republicans' big money donors have only themselves to blame for the GOP and the economy breaking down.)

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#113708: Feb 29th 2016 at 11:34:42 AM

I'm honestly sick of "Trump crossover" claim going around being usubstantiated. It's a dirty, petty stereotype.

Same thing as "berniebros". Clinton campaign smearing Sanders voters as "evil harrassers", while completely ignoring harrassers among her own voter base, is just as dishonest as, well, Clinton herself.

edited 29th Feb '16 11:42:23 AM by Luminosity

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#113709: Feb 29th 2016 at 11:46:03 AM

It's not a complete fabrication, but I would be shocked if the overlap was even remotely significant, since it caters to a small subset of people who despise the political or corporate establishment enough to put up with either candidates' otherwise unacceptable views.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#113710: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:00:12 PM

[up] But it's being paraded like it's something every single Bernie supporter just dreams of doing, when the entire patriarchial system of sexist harrassment isn't painted as something somehow unique to Bernie Sanders voterbase. It's intentional bad faith stereotyping that's going around unproven and unchallenged in this very thread, side by side with "it's the media that hurts Clinton" claim, as if the media fabricated her entire political history and current ties.

edited 29th Feb '16 12:00:54 PM by Luminosity

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#113711: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:17:45 PM

Actually I don't think we've discussed the whole bernie bros thing much because its... not really that important. Sanders himself told them to knock it off, which is certainly enough for me and in any case I don't think that many here make the error of equating the behavior of fans and supporters with the candidates themselves. Frankly I don't think anyone's discussed it that much anywhere, except for an article or two. So I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that it's being paraded about as a thing that all of them do.

edited 29th Feb '16 12:18:14 PM by AceofSpades

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#113712: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:24:58 PM

Walmart is a good example of this. They have a massive profit margin

They have a tiny profit margin relative to the size of their enterprise.

edited 29th Feb '16 12:26:55 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#113713: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:26:31 PM

We may not see "Berniebros" per se, but the narrative of Clinton as an untrustworthy insider is all too common: I hear it in my personal conversations, I see it on Facebook, I see it here on TV Tropes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#113714: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:33:59 PM

@FF Shinra —

What was happening to the GOP in 2010 is that the party went to war against itself. The Tea Party started ousting establishment Republicans and then refusing to toe the party line once they were in office. This is not happening to the Democrats right now, full stop. Yes, Bernie Sanders represents a more liberal wing of the Democratic party and he's enjoying a considerable amount of support. That doesn't mean that the lunatics are threatening to seize control of the asylum like the GOP circa 2010. The group of Democrats that support Sanders are not analogous to the Tea Party.

Yes, the Democratic party is trying to figure out what it's going to be post-Obama presidency, and this primary season is largely a referendum between pushing slow and steady to the left and jumping hard and fast to the left. That sort of readjustment happens occasionally in a healthy party. The fact that the GOP didn't do that sort of thing for several decades is why the marginalized GOP voters are staging a rebellion right now — because they've been ignored for so long that they're fed up with it.

We're probably going to see some changes in the Democratic party in the not-too-distant future, no matter who wins the primary and the general election. The mere fact that Bernie Sanders has gotten as much support as he has proves that the Democratic voter base on the national level is ready to vote for a less moderate candidate than has been previously thought. The DNC is going to have to take that into account in the future, or else they will eventually be facing a Tea Party style voter uprising against the party establishment.

But they certainly aren't to that point yet.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#113715: Feb 29th 2016 at 12:53:54 PM

I wrote this on my Tumblr as an explanation for why I get so hysterical about politics:

Look. I swear I’m not going to be a whiny pissbaby about all of this politics stuff for too long, but I want to stay this. I really don’t care whether or not Hillary or Sanders wins. I don’t. I think that Sanders’s more sincere, I agree with him on most everything, and I think he’s likeable, but I would be just as happy with Clinton. She is, without question, one of the most qualified candidates for the presidency in a very long time, and she would suffice.

I want either of them to win, because if they don’t and a Republican wins, THE WORLD WILL END. I don’t know if that’s actually true or not, but it’s what my mind tells me every single time I see something that some fuck-ass Republican senator did or what Trump said or how everyone hates Cruz. I see it, and my mind (the bastion of reason and calm that it is) tells me that if neither Clinton nor Sanders wins, The Literal Apocalypse Will Occur. Corporations will kill poor people on the streets, gay people are thrown in dungeons, the Civil Rights Movement is erased-this is what my brain paints for me when I hear about this. It must be avoided At All Costs.

So that’s why I get mad when I see something about how fake Clinton is, and what a precious cinnamon roll Sanders is and how he would be the best unlike that phony flip-flopping DINO Clinton. I see it as weakening one of two people who stands between us and the apocalypse. My brain tells me that if Trump wins, if Cruz wins, if Kasich wins, everything will fall apart and we will all die. We can’t afford that. We can afford Clinton, e-mails and donors be damned. She will not kill us all. Sanders won’t kill us all. We need to protect them both at all costs, or else there will be death and misery and destruction.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#113716: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:08:54 PM

[up] Well, I care. I've had enough of the "lesser evil" narrative used to justify Clinton. Sure, she is the lesser evil, but unlike the Republican party(which is in total shambles right now), she is electable. Either one of them as the nomination will wipe the floor with the Republican candidate, especially if it's Trump, because too many people are horrified by him in general.

This narrative is divergient, it purposefully wants you forget or even ignore every single problem that will arise with Clinton as president, because "Look! Cthulhu!", forgetting how actually dangerous Clinton is with her history and ties. Unlike the Republicans, the damage Clinton can do isn't some alarmist bullshit from a party slowly but surely becoming obsolete, but real concerns with a candidate that actually stands a chance to be elected.

So no, I don't want progress setbacks, TPP, even bigger Wall Street power, Whatever-the-hell-Comcast-wants-out-of-her, complete denial of even laying the groundwork for single-payer in the next 4-8 years, total abandonment of everything else by the party due to "Phew, blew all our funds on our president, guess it's time to do nothing now", and a billion other concerns getting overlooked because Trump did a thing again.

And last, but not least, I don't want her to do what a few other warhawks have tried - starting shit with Putin without understanding how he works, promptly losing and accomplishing nothing, but a hit to our economy that everyone but Putin has to suffer through. Her bloodthirst is the only policy she hadn't flip-flopped on yet, so I don't want to face poverty because someone's foreign policy claws needed scratching.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:14:55 PM by Luminosity

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#113717: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:11:06 PM

[up][up]You might want to see a professional about that, because that sounds like an anxiety issue.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:11:29 PM by Kayeka

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#113718: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:12:38 PM

I think you need to take a deep breath, actually. It won't be great, but the world will not literally end. Histrionics aren't going to help anyone. This state of existential panic you appear to be in is just going to drain you.

Anyway, interesting article on Clinton and Sanders. Still processing it myself.

https://medium.com/@zacharyleven/the-case-for-hillary-3564233d524f#.ap8axjmut

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#113719: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:14:47 PM

THE WORLD WILL END.

I'll just add another point to add to [up] and [up][up] above, of which I agree:

The World does not merely compromise the USA.

edited 29th Feb '16 1:16:10 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#113720: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:26:12 PM

still... if the US tanks under Trump then it's going to drag a good chunk of the world down with it

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#113721: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:33:34 PM

On the other hand maybe that'll discredit that kind of speech and stance. ... Right? RIGHT?

Unless they think doubling down on it is the only way of doing it correctly, else they'd have to admit they were wrong.

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#113722: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:51:37 PM

Republicans are outpacing Democrats by 40,000 in Florida's early voting:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/02/29/voters_in_florida_begin_early_voting_in_crucial_primary_129818.html

Absentee and early voting are popular in Florida. Projections show that more than half of those voting in the primary will have cast their ballots before the March 15 primary. So far, more than 303,000 Republican voters and more than 261,000 Democratic voters have submitted their absentee ballots, according to University of Florida political scientist Daniel Smith, who is tracking statewide absentee ballot returns.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2016/02/amid_trump_surge_nearly_20000_mass_voters_quit_democratic_party

Nearly 20,000 Bay State Democrats have fled the party this winter, with thousands doing so to join the Republican ranks, according to the state’s top elections official.

Secretary of State William Galvin said more than 16,300 Democrats have shed their party affiliation and become independent voters since Jan. 1, while nearly 3,500 more shifted to the Mass GOP ahead of tomorrow’s “Super Tuesday” presidential primary.

edited 29th Feb '16 2:39:05 PM by SolipsistOwl

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#113723: Feb 29th 2016 at 1:59:09 PM

Re: I Love Dogs: The only way I could see a literal apocalypse happening if Trump were elected is if he pisses off certain foreign nations (coughNORTHKOREAcough) enough that they nuclear bomb us, causing MAD. And frankly, given his belligerent demeanor in the election so far, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happened.

That said, even if a literal apocalypse didn't happen, I dread the kind of policies he would enact in office.

edited 29th Feb '16 2:05:56 PM by speedyboris

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#113724: Feb 29th 2016 at 2:02:27 PM

Unless they think doubling down on it is the only way of doing it correctly, else they'd have to admit they were wrong.
Congrats, you've just described the Tea Party mantra. Their plan B is twice as much gasoline as plan A. I'm sure you can guess plans C-Z.
more than 16,300 Democrats have shed their party affiliation and become independent voters since Jan. 1, while nearly 3,500 more shifted to the Mass GOP
Any word on how many of them switched to make sure Trump gets the nod to make Bern/Hil's job easier?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#113725: Feb 29th 2016 at 2:06:17 PM

[up][up]North Korea doesn't have the ability to harm the US. Neither does China actually.

Russia is the only non-NATO affiliated nation on earth with the capability of carrying out MAD against the United States, nobody else has a nuclear arsenal that can get through are missile defenses or reach our borders.

Oh really when?

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