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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#112451: Feb 18th 2016 at 1:31:18 PM

Funny tho, didn't Sanders say he would ask Krugman as a financial advisor

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#112452: Feb 18th 2016 at 1:43:24 PM

I think this lays a bit in a chicken-egg issue.

Most of Sanders' economic goals could be shot for if you could wrestle Congress away from financial diehard Republicans and financially conservative Democrats. Which requires the issue of getting the voters to the polls. Because reminder, Sanders, if he gets to the General, isn't planning to fire up just the current Democratic voter base, he plans to wrestle back the working/middle class back away from the Republican party.

Unfortunately, a lot of wonks have decided to circle their wagon train around Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC. And right now, the DNC is probably the biggest, nastiest blotch in the Democratic party, especially when they've allowed the Democratic party's legislative and state party wings to atrophy in the name of making sure the Democrats are a bunch of Center Rightists willing to cut deals with Hard Right Wings, who only turn left on social issues.

But most of the fact this growth is a bit unrealistic has quite a bit to do with Congressional impasse and the fact the Democrats are always defending from the right, balled up as the Republicans kick and scream.

Though if Trump's any proof, Partial Left-Wing Economics is viable and loved by the public.

I'm not sure Left Wing voters rallying around Sanders are Know Nothings, so much as FUCKING SICK TO DEATH with "muh hand of da free market" that Neo Conservatism and Neo Liberalism has brought the country, and with it the 2008 banking crisis. So burning down the DNC has the unfortunate side effect of "Eat the wonks" that are wagon training around the DNC.

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#112453: Feb 18th 2016 at 2:46:16 PM

Sanders is not 'radical,' nor his proposals "pie in the sky." He's a moderate New Dealer compared to the current Democratic Party, which is more in line with the '80s Republicans.

The Clintons have bragged about turning the Democratic Party into Republicans, and asserted that there "are no Democrats."

Well, Sanders is a true Democrat. Nothing radical about falling back on proven party principles.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#112454: Feb 18th 2016 at 2:48:15 PM

Well, watching the whole thing with Sanders having had his campaign out in the states since November makes me hope this teaches the Dems a thing about having ground game in the states. Lack of it is how they lost in the mid term election.

Somehow I kind of doubt it, but it's a major weakness they have and they need to improve on that. Such tactics might actually make some of Sanders' further out there propositions possible. I'm not really understanding how they don't realize the need for it.

Edit: So glad it looks like Cliven Bundy is finally getting the law book thrown at him.

edited 18th Feb '16 2:50:04 PM by AceofSpades

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#112455: Feb 18th 2016 at 2:56:33 PM

The problem is that Sanders is expressing this by utilizing bunk numbers, which is a damned shame, especially since there's a whole field of liberal academia out there with well-thought policy ideas instead of 5.3% economic growth and a single-payer plan that somehow pays for itself.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#112456: Feb 18th 2016 at 2:59:12 PM

I was speaking solely in terms of getting Democrats voted into office. Sanders seems to be pretty on the ball with getting his campaign out there in general.

I say this as someone who firmly wants to vote for Hillary.

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#112457: Feb 18th 2016 at 2:59:43 PM

[up][up]"Bunk numbers"?

Sanders is the only candidate with so much expectation to release policy details for their platforms. Clinton doesn't even have a plan for expanding healthcare coverage, nor the numbers to back up her assertions for reducing climate change, etc.

That 5.3% growth figure was provided by someone publicly voting for Clinton.

Meet the Man Who Says Bernie Sanders Can Deliver 5.3% Economic Growth

edited 18th Feb '16 3:08:01 PM by SolipsistOwl

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#112458: Feb 18th 2016 at 3:04:53 PM

Well, watching the whole thing with Sanders having had his campaign out in the states since November makes me hope this teaches the Dems a thing about having ground game in the states. Lack of it is how they lost in the mid term election.
As I've stated, the DNC / Clintons want the Democrats to perform middling during the mid-terms. They're perfectly fine with, and perfer, a Republican Congress. Less political opposition to their view of what the Democrats should be.

The weakness is a feature, not a bug.

edited 18th Feb '16 3:05:39 PM by PotatoesRock

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#112459: Feb 18th 2016 at 3:17:35 PM

The Clintons have bragged about turning the Democratic Party into Republicans, and asserted that there "are no Democrats."

This seems like a pretty big claim; one that I've never heard before. Do you have anything supporting it?

edited 18th Feb '16 3:18:04 PM by LSBK

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#112460: Feb 18th 2016 at 3:36:46 PM

The Agenda: Inside the Clinton White House, by Bob Woodward

In April, 1993, there's a lot of pressure to get health out, and they're talking about NAFTA, and ta[l]king about GATT. According to Woodward, there's this meeting in the Oval Office, and Clinton bellows, "Where are all the Democrats? I hope you're aware we're all Eisenhower Republicans, " with voice dripping with sarcasm. "We're Eisenhower Republicans here. Here we are, and we're standing for lower deficits and free trade and the bond market. Isn't that great?"

https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/700375346005340160

edited 18th Feb '16 3:38:57 PM by SolipsistOwl

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#112461: Feb 18th 2016 at 3:45:39 PM

Party lines have shifted so much in the 50 years since that era though it is true, pretty much every aspect of both parties have flipped back and fourth 50 times since the beginning.

Especially recently, with tea party shit the Republicans are one step to the left of Nazis at this point.

edited 18th Feb '16 3:48:08 PM by Memers

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#112462: Feb 18th 2016 at 3:53:44 PM

That's not how it works. The Nazis were all about the State working very well indeed, which is not really what the TP are about.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#112463: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:07:25 PM

I was exaggerating there but still there are a huge amount of scary parallels of prewar Nazi party and current republican shit that's going on. Especially the racist hysteria that most of them are trying to induce.

That's beside the point though, 1950s republicans are today's democrats on a lot of issues.

edited 18th Feb '16 4:09:28 PM by Memers

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#112464: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:16:03 PM

Any thoughts on Trump promising to re-open investigation into 9/11? He claims he has access to secret documents proving the Bush administration was fully aware of their steps towards the Iraq War rather than just incompetent.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#112465: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:18:59 PM

What, he has access to them now? How?

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#112466: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:21:20 PM

They're not all that secret. It's known that Bush got a memo that bin Laden was up to something, and brushed it aside. And there are declassified documents that demonstrate that the Joint Chiefs of Staff had no hard evidence showing that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction (but that they did have a reasonable assumption that Iraq possibly could have had the potential ability to produce some weapons of mass destruction, at some point, somewhere, maybe).

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#112467: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:21:28 PM

Why would Trump investigate Bush?

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#112468: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:24:01 PM

Trump has alluded to wanting to prove Saudia Arabia was involved, as widely speculated.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#112469: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:30:28 PM

He's essentially a private citizen at the moment right now, so if he's got access to something it's probably through illegal means. Not that I actually believe he's got access to jack shit, because again, private citizen. He's not yet any kind of government official or any kind of reputable reporter. Or reputable on anything regarding 9/11, as given his whole birther stance I don't have much faith he's got a well informed, even handed view on that tragedy.

So basically I think he's full of bullshit.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#112470: Feb 18th 2016 at 4:53:56 PM

Anything coming from Trump is immediately suspect and I'm baffled about what the motive would be. Why make the Republicans look even worse than they already do?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#112471: Feb 18th 2016 at 5:02:46 PM

"Bunk numbers"?
Yes, bunk numbers. Sanders' economic plan makes wildly optimistic assumptions about a lot of things in order to arrive at its numbers. Krugman among others have been openly critical of this — which is honestly unfortunate, because I'd actually prefer to support Sanders if his claims were viable. But they aren't, and that's pretty much that.

In April, 1993 [...]
And this is the precise reason why so much shit gets thrown at Hillary — because she's been in the public eye for so goddamn long. You're seriously criticizing her based on one thing that her husband said, behind closed doors, more than 20 years ago?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#112472: Feb 18th 2016 at 5:05:17 PM

He wants to humiliate and decapitate the current Republican establishment. Trump and Sanders aren't exact 1:1, but they're doing similar things. By attacking 9/11, Trump is trying to erase and destroy Dubya's reputation among Republicans, and thus gut and destroy Jeb Bush. And present the Republicans with the fact they need a real leader, not some spineless brother of a failed former leader.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#112473: Feb 18th 2016 at 5:06:13 PM

Is Bush even a serious threat to Trump anymore?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#112474: Feb 18th 2016 at 5:09:46 PM

[up] Not really, but Trump is psychologically incapable of not lashing out at anyone who dares talk about him badly.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#112475: Feb 18th 2016 at 5:11:15 PM

Probably not directly but he can serve as a spoiler element, since he has enough money to keep him afloat until the convention.

The concept is more "Humiliate and kick Bush out, and grab his voters to feed his Delegate count and squish Cruz."


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