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ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#111426: Feb 9th 2016 at 1:59:49 PM

[up]

"Republicans need a puppet and you fit, got their hand so far up your rear, call you 'Mitt'."

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#111427: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:03:50 PM

Anti free trade is insane!?
Yes, it is. If you still oppose free trade in principle, then either you think you know better than all economic experts, or you have the mindset of a Luddite.

There are plenty of legit problems with most implementations of free trade, including the ones discussed right now.
Sure, but then you're talking about the problem of implementation and basically hidden protocols, not free trade in general. "Insane" is the Trump/Sanders/Nader/Paul approach, i.e. "free trade is BAD, all jobs should be kept here, foreigners are ruining everything, and the WTO is the devil".

edited 9th Feb '16 2:08:10 PM by Nihlus1

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#111428: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:06:12 PM

Millennial College Students are with Bernie. God some of these people are so fucking stupid. Still, I understand why our generation is pissed. If this place goes to hell we are probably going to spend our entire lives watching it burn.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#111429: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:08:46 PM

Argumentum ad populum is not a way to call something "insane", especially in economics. The second graph seems like a red herring to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#111430: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:12:59 PM

Argumentum ad populum is not a way to call something "insane", especially in economics
"Argumentum ad populum" is the strategy of the anti-free trade folks. It's a stance that relies on ignoring experts, not listening to them. It's the default strategy of populists like Trump.

The whole point of free trade is that every country gets to play to its strengths. The only justification you can use for being against free trade (which benefits consumers here who pay much less for products, as well as workers overseas who get much higher wages) the way Trump etc. are is that it's bad for a certain section of the middle class (unskilled laborers who can't switch to another job), and so we should ignore what the most efficient and universally beneficial path is in favor of helping them. This is the exact same justification the Luddites used when they smashed machines threatening their jobs.

The second graph seems like a red herring to me.
The second graph illustrated the effects of free trade in another country (read: workers got x3 richer) after the first article illustrated the effects in the USA (read: economists agree it's a positive).

edited 9th Feb '16 2:18:22 PM by Nihlus1

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#111431: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:13:16 PM

I thought Cruz was the establishment candidate?

Cruz is the hardcore Bible thumper whose motto is that he will personally bring hellfire to all the unbelievers before they even die. He's also the hardest of the hardcore Tea Party, and has been a major leader in getting the Tea Party to try to destroy the older school Republicans. Hence why the old school Republicans completely loathe him. They might even prefer Obama or Clinton to Cruz. Also, as Fighteer noted, Cruz was the key figure in causing the government shutdown... and then within a few days after the shutdown began, he called the press to follow him to the Vietnam and WWII memorials, where he decried what shame it was that the government shutdown was robbing veterans of their chance to visit those memorials, which they would have access to if only the government wasn't so broken. He's that kind of asshole.

Rubio is a Tea Party guy, but not nearly as hardcore as Cruz and he was willing to differ from the Tea Party orthodoxy in one or two ways before it blew up in his face, at which point he did a 180. We have always been at war with Eurasia, in a nutshell. Also the ultimate in being an empty suit and openly shilling for the right to sell his vote to whoever pays him.

Kasich's positions would have been considered a hardcore right winger pretty deep into the conservative spectrum about 12 years ago or more, but now the party has moved rightward so much it's left him looking like an appealing moderate. His positions are fairly terrible, but he's willing to not be an asshole about them and to make a pragmatic compromise here and there on some small things, which practically makes him a pleasant breath of fresh air.

Oh, and he also revoked funding for a major transportation project (a commuter tunnel) that would have had far-reaching economic benefits.

I think twice now I've started to type up something about this and stopped because it was going to get too involved and raise my blood pressure too much. But long story short contest, currently a ridiculously high percentage of New Jersey citizens work in New York City, particularly Manhattan. The only train tunnel under the river and into the city is over 100 years old and had all sorts of problems that were in dire need of maintenance even before the calamity that was Hurricane Sandy. The feds would have paid for nearly all of the new tunnel, with a small remainder being split between New York and New Jersey. Christie turned it down in an attempt to get the Federal money already granted into the state's general funds, so he could brag about about balancing the budget without raising taxes. (Not that it entirely worked for him, since the feds insisted on some of the money that had been disbursed to Jersey being paid back.) Had he not done so, the new tunnel would be more than halfway to completion by now, and it would give a chance to mostly use that new tunnel while the old one was fixed up, at which point a much more efficient system would be in play and benefit the 400,000 people who pass commute from Jersey to New York on a daily basis.

Then Sandy hit and wrecked the inside of the already old and worn out tunnel, which has squeezed it down to only being able to operate on a single rail lane for trains going back and forth, ramping the time for those commuters up to something like 3 hours each way. And it's not like driving or busing in will do them any favors either, as the main way is the George Washington Bridge, (the same one his people briefly closed down during) which is infamously terrible for its traffic and the volume of cars on it, even when it's not rush hour. When it is rush hour... you might be better off committing seppuku.

So basically in his policy of being penny wise and pound foolish, Christie screwed over the people in his state for at least another decade to come, maybe 2. He undermined their quality of life, their buying power, their employment, and the economy of what they're able to bring home with them due to working in New York all to make himself look like the guy who would make tough choices and say no to big government spending. In reality he made the worst possible choices and screwed everyone over with his actions.

Christie is pretty contemptible.

edited 9th Feb '16 2:15:30 PM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#111432: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:24:33 PM

This is the exact same justification the Luddites used when they smashed machines threatening their jobs.

Wrong.

The machines did not threaten their jobs. They were fine with machines, and many of them were skilled enough to operate them. They wanted the same things every sane worker wanted - decent wages and conditions. Destruction of machines was a form to protect, not the end goal.

It's like saying people who go picketing fight for their right to wave signs around. If you're gonna use historical comparisons, don't rely on ignorant myths.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#111433: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:25:52 PM

Nihlus, I'm going to trust the word of a Nobel-prize-winning economist over yours, if that's okay with you. You are literally the only person I've seen making that argument.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#111434: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:26:56 PM

[up][up][up] And isn't there now another new rail tunnel going into Manhattan from the Long Island side?

edited 9th Feb '16 2:27:45 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#111435: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:27:42 PM

Wrong.
They're acting like the popular myth version of Luddites, then.

Nihlus, I'm going to trust the word of a Nobel-prize-winning economist over yours, if that's okay with you.
I think I'm going to trust the words of 99% of economists since the 90s rather than yours, if that's okay with you.

"Few propositions command as much consensus among professional economists as that open world trade increases economic growth and raises living standards."

edited 9th Feb '16 2:33:28 PM by Nihlus1

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#111436: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:30:07 PM

To put Kasich's ultra right wing into perspective

Refused to set up a state run exchange for healthcare because he wanted to spite Obamacare

16 abortion clinics shut down during his time as governor

Proposed cutting Medicaid for poor pregnant women and if poor cancer patients

Limited budgeting for family care plans for working class women

Gutted $1.8 million in public schooling and transported that into corrupted charter schools

Push to strip public labor unions of their bargaining power

The ever so usual tax cuts for the rich

And contrary to claiming that he would love his imaginary gay child and went to a gay wedding once, he still supported a ban for gay marriage in Ohio.

Oh and you can still be fired for being gay in Ohio

Let's face it. There are no moderates in the GOP primary.

edited 9th Feb '16 2:31:54 PM by NoName999

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#111437: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:33:08 PM

Argumentum ad populum is not a way to call something "insane"

Appealing to the consensus of expert opinion in an academic field isn't an appeal to popularity.

edited 9th Feb '16 2:33:33 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#111438: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:33:27 PM

I believed that myth about the Luddites until thirty seconds ago.

I did notice that I was confused when I was told about them in history class, but the teacher insisted that they were indeed that stupid, unbelievable though it may have seemed. In the end, I was right!

edited 9th Feb '16 2:36:26 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#111439: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:41:25 PM

Appealing to the consensus of expert opinion in an academic field isn't an appeal to popularity.

Unless the experts disagree with me. Then THEY ARE WRONG

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#111440: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:42:21 PM

And isn't there now another new rail tunnel going into Manhattan from the Long Island side?

There's a new project in the planning stages, work isn't currently expected to start until around 2019. If it finishes on time (it won't) then it won't open until 2024. Personally, I'm betting 2026-2028 at best, especially considering how long the previous project was expected to take. This time around, the states of New York and Jersey are expect to pay for at least half of the total, rather than the feds were going to pick up something like 60-75% or something along those lines last time.

So not only did Christie slow down a rail tunnel by years, he made sure New Jersey will pay more for it too. (Especially since not only will the % Jersey has to pay be higher, but so will the total price tag. The previous project was expect to come in at maybe $11 billion, this one is starting off at a $20 billion estimate from Amtrak and that's before the inevitable time and cost overruns.)

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#111441: Feb 9th 2016 at 2:55:24 PM

[up][up]That might yet be correct. Look up John Snow. Also look up Very Serious People.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#111442: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:05:47 PM

The Very Serious People are almost entirely journalists or politicos. The point of the sarcastic nickname is to highlight their lack of actual practical or academic expertise despite the 'elder sage' personae they cultivate. They aren't experts, they just want people to think they are.

That said, RationalWiki's list seems to be as much a place to pillory right-of-centre commentators they can't call racist as much as it is about calling out cultish centrism.

edited 9th Feb '16 3:11:46 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#111443: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:07:23 PM

I actually thought you were joking with the Very Serious People thing lel

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#111444: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:19:24 PM

Point is, it is possible to be right against the academic consensus. I make this statement with reservations.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#111445: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:44:58 PM

Aye, Kasich, like Rubio, is dangerous because he seems more reasonable.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#111446: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:46:32 PM

I'll take people who are pragmatic enough to deal with the other party at this point. Too many idealogues.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#111447: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:58:04 PM

Well, ideally, none of them should be elected, right? If they do, all of the progress of the past, present and future will go down the toilet (thanks to the anticipated changing of Supreme Court justices).

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#111448: Feb 9th 2016 at 3:59:53 PM

Depends on the Senate. Justices need confirming after all.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#111449: Feb 9th 2016 at 4:00:00 PM

Yeah, even Kasich would likely screw you guys for decades by appointing nutbars to the Supreme Court.

[up]When are the Dems going to get their mid-term act together?

edited 9th Feb '16 4:00:35 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#111450: Feb 9th 2016 at 4:03:29 PM

As soon as we dispel the notion that electing a Democrat as a president is a checkmate move.

Another thing we need to do is dispel the notion that Obama doesn't know what he's doing, he knows EXACTLY what he's doing!


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