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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110976: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:22:23 PM

Jimmy Carter is one of my top three favorite American presidents. I hope to see him at the DNC's convention later this year. (They barred him from attending in years past)

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110977: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:22:49 PM

It should be noted, by the way, that the economic failures under Allende that Nihilus is using to try and justify Pinochet? At least in part the result of economic sanctions put in place by Nixon at Kissinger's recommendation.

Nixon and Kissinger helped kill the Chilean economy than used that to justify installing a dictator who killed thousands of his own people and tortured thousands more.

EDIT: Oh and under Pinochet, wages fell 8%, family allowances dropped to 28% of what they'd been under Allende, and budgets for health, housing and education fell 20%. By 1989, 44-45% of Chilean families lived below the poverty line, with what economic growth there was benefiting only the top 10% So the "Pinochet saved the economy" argument falls flat too.

@Jack

Under that same logic, the USA should have to pay damages to the families of Pinochet and Videla (and Suharto and the Pakistani Army's) victims. Which is not necessarily a bad idea, even if it will never happen.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:29:11 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#110978: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:31:42 PM

Morally, Jimmy Carter is probably the best US President, although I think Obama may be better on social issues if only due to different standards of the time and Fair for Its Day stuff.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#110979: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:32:49 PM

"Failing economy" is a massive understatement here. Allende crashed the Chilean economy so badly in a few years that inflation reached 600%. Chile today still has far higher GDP per capita than Venezuela despite not having massive oil wealth. Cuba, despite starting in a good position, has per capita GDP comparable to higher tier sub-Saharan African countries.

So if any country experiences financial instability in the vein of stagflation or such, it is cool for someone to depose its government, impose a military junta, and shrug off the deaths of thousands, torture and rape of tens of thousands. Gotcha.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110980: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:34:54 PM

[up]No kidding. Not to mention that, as I detailed above, Pinochet didn't even manage to "save" the economy. Under his regime, economic disparity widened, with the vast majority of what wealth was generated winding up in the hands of a few members of the upper class. That's not counting, of course, the millions of dollars in government money that somehow vanished into the coffers of various high-ranking officers, most notably Pinochet himself.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#110981: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:37:17 PM

To be fair, Cuba also has much higher quality of life than its GDP would indicate. Life expectancy, health care, education are all very solid.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110982: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:39:06 PM

Also to be fair, no amount of economic growth justifies mass murder. I mean are we going to justify Stalin's murders on the basis that "Russia needed to industrialize"?

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#110983: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:39:33 PM

[up][up][up] Is Kleptomainia in a dictatorship really that surprising?

Its kinda obligatory.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:40:08 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110984: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:41:04 PM

[up]Did I say it was surprising? I'm just adding it to the list of things that need to be mentioned when discussing Pinochet's effect on Chile.

Not to mention that if certain people are going to talk about his economic policies as if they were a good thing, the fact that he stole millions of dollars from his own government is a worthwhile point.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:41:47 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#110985: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:41:53 PM

Guys, I think we're veering off topic now.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#110986: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:44:32 PM

[up][up][up][up] Quite a few Russians as a matter of fact, and citizens of the other SSR'S do.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#110987: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:45:27 PM

@Kleptocracy obligatory? No, it isn't.

[up]On topic? How about having the rest of the world represented as an extra State of sorts in both party primaries, presidential elections, and congressional elections? Not enough to be truly disruptive, but enough so that the world can have a say on who's going to be the most powerful man in it, given how the POTUS has the ability to irreparably fuck them up should he or she or they choose to.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:46:53 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110988: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:45:42 PM

I'm leaving this here to help re-rail the conversation.

It's a comparison of Trump and Sanders merch. The Trump ballcap is made in China; the Bernie cap is made in the U.S.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110989: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:46:48 PM

[up][up][up]And do you buy that argument? Somehow I doubt it.

The moment people are willing to start justifying human rights violations in the name of economic growth, you are in a very bad place. I mean heck, that argument is how you slavery in the USA in the first place, as just one example.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:47:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#110990: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:48:00 PM

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#110991: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:48:06 PM

[up][up] I don't, just saying what other think.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:48:15 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#110992: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:56:32 PM

[up]x4 The irony is strong in that one, though both are pretty cool, and i'd buy them for the hell of it if I could.

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:00:14 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#110993: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:02:17 PM

Here's something I found interesting.

Not many Muslims support Republicans, but those who do support Trump.

And in other news.

The head of Goldman Sachs believes being singled out for criticism by Bernie Sanders represents a “dangerous moment” for the country.

Clinton, Sanders agree to four more debates.

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:05:54 PM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#110994: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:06:07 PM

Meanwhile, the video games world is getting Trumped. (Language warning, for those who care.)

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:06:52 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#110995: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:06:17 PM

[up][up]Where does the most interesting Muslim in the world fall?

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:06:42 PM by sgamer82

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#110996: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:09:12 PM

[up][up]"This game is gonna be huuuge!" [lol]

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110997: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:13:16 PM

lol

The Chamber [of Commerce] president [Tom Donohue] said he expected Hillary Clinton would ultimately support the TPP if she becomes the Democratic nominee for president and is elected. He argued that she has publicly opposed the deal chiefly because her main challenger, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), has also done so. "If she were to get nominated, if she were to be elected, I have a hunch that what runs in the family is you get a little practical if you ever get the job," he said.

Chamber of Commerce Lobbyist Tom Donohue: Clinton Will Support TPP After Election

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:15:21 PM by SolipsistOwl

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#110998: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:19:22 PM

[up]Come on, people. There's always the chance that she'll tell all her PAC contributors to shove off when the time comes for her to return the favor.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110999: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:19:38 PM

[up][up]Considering the source, that is a classic example of a completely unbiased statement.

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:19:47 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#111000: Feb 3rd 2016 at 4:22:21 PM

Jimmy Carter trivia: he declined to pay reparations to Vietnam, arguing the war had changed American society just as much.

edited 3rd Feb '16 4:23:01 PM by SolipsistOwl


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