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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#110951: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:51:16 PM

The question of whether Allende was a good ruler or not doesn't strike me as all that relevant in evaluating the rightfulness of Kissinger helping with his overthrow. He was elected fair and square. In a healthy democracy, a bad ruler gets voted out of office — that's kind of the entire reason to even favour democracy.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#110952: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:51:26 PM

[up][up][tup][awesome]On Kissinger. Fuck that guy.

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:51:36 PM by FFShinra

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#110953: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:51:26 PM

@the Crusades talk: Didn't this thread have a topic at one point?

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:55:48 PM by Ramidel

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#110954: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:51:39 PM

...So is anyone really surprised that Trump went full salt after failing to win in Iowa?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#110955: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:52:05 PM

[up] I'd be surprised if anyone was surprised.

Shadow?
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#110956: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:52:25 PM

I now blame Kissinger for the Falklands War, really, if he hadn't decided to overthrow the Argentinian government we wouldn't have had the war

advancing the front into TV Tropes
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#110957: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:52:40 PM

No. Trump is not surprising at all. Surprising was his low key concession.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110958: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:52:56 PM

[up]X18 You appear to have suffered some kind of weird temporary blindness while reading my post, here let me try again.

"the evidence does indicate that it or something similar was once said by Bush at a diplomatic meeting"

I'd suggest you get your eyes checked out if they fail you again.

[up]X17 It's far an exact comparison, if anything it takes a slightly more favourable view of the crusades, the basic idea is that the people behind both things honestly believed they were on a mission from God to stop the evil men hurting people, but they made such a mess of the 'mission' and engaged in so much brutality in it that they just made everything much much worse. Their belief that they were on a mission from God can also in part be tied to the idea that the white man must save and tame the savage lands and bring civilisation to others.

It's far from an exact comparison and it can certain be disagreed with, but it has been made.

Oh and the original Iraq plan was for a few months I belive, 90 days I think but I'll have to actually check my sources.

Edit: Fuck all y'all [nja]s tongue

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:54:01 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#110959: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:53:21 PM

[up]x6 At one point perhapstongue

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:54:03 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110960: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:54:02 PM

@Dr Dougsh

Exactly. I'll note that the comparisons some tropers are trying to make between Allende and Chavez are also ridiculous. Chavez made himself dictator of Venezuela in all but name. Allende did not do the same in Chile and there is no evidence whatsoever that he intended to.

@Field Marshal Fry

I'm sorry to say that the Falklands War is the least of the BS that the National Reorganization Process got up to. Among the things on General Videla and Admiral Massera's rapsheets are mass murder, catch-and-release torture, mass rape, and the kidnapping and selling of orphaned children. It was an ugly, ugly regime, and one that had full backing from first Ford and then Reagan.

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:58:10 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#110961: Feb 3rd 2016 at 2:58:46 PM

[up] Both won every election democratically, and I do recall reading some articles in foreign policy saying that Allenede did some of the same media intimidation/ censorship BS Chavez did. And just to be clear I do not support the coup carried out against him.

Edit: You left out Nixon. Oh and how did Carter deal with them, I know he really turned against the South Koreans for their Human rights abuses.

edited 3rd Feb '16 2:59:35 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110962: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:02:19 PM

I belive Carter also started to phase out tech sharing with despotic regimes at one point, specifically nuclear tech sharing with the Shah of Iran. At least I think it was Carter who begun to reduce that, the essay I wrote that mentions that is on my laptop and I'm on my iPad now.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110963: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:05:40 PM

Wait, Trump's throwing a hissy fit? I have to see this.

One check of Twitter later:

And finally, Cruz strongly told thousands of caucusgoers (voters) that Trump was strongly in favor of Obama Care and "choice" - a total lie!

I'm sure that's supposed to be an abortion reference but I choose to take it literally. Spread the word, folks. Don't be taken in by lies. Trump is a devout enemy of choice.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110964: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:10:26 PM

@Jack

Carter cut support to both Pinochet and The Process, as he did for most of the other dictatorships that Nixon and Ford had installed or backed.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#110965: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:11:28 PM

Bless his soul, then.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#110966: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:11:30 PM

You appear to have suffered some kind of weird temporary blindness while reading my post, here let me try again.
Oh no, I saw it. I'm just calling BS because you posted a quote he never said.

So in your mind, killing thousands of people is better than letting the economy stagnate? Good to know.
So, in your mind, a GDP per capita of $1,600 (about $7,100 in 2015 dollars, lower than Namibia or Angola) and a possible Peru-esque insurgency is preferable to 1,200 - 3,000 deaths?

There also seems to be this weird misconception that the US was powerful enough to just casually replace major governments. They weren't, though they wish they were. They just backed movements that were going to happen anyway.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:13:57 PM by Nihlus1

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#110967: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:11:52 PM

He also gave the canal back to us. Carter so nice.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#110968: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:11:59 PM

Was posted earlier that Trump backed out from his low concession and was demanding another caucus cuz Cruz cheated or something.

There also seems to be this weird misconception that the US was powerful enough to just casually replace major governments. They weren't. They just backed movements that were going to happen anyway.

Would it simply be casual understandable politics if the U.K or Russia or China started to fund the KKK, or Trump?

Or if Britain had funded the Confederacy?

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:13:50 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#110969: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:14:02 PM

Quite an abrupt change from his initial acceptance speech. And not one I expect to help him. Being a big baby doesn't look as good when you're not even getting your way. It just makes you look pathetic.

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#110970: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:14:55 PM

They should just go back to counting hands like in elementary school.

Edit: fixed redundancy.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:16:47 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#110971: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:17:01 PM

Would it simply be casual understandable politics if the U.K or Russia or China started to fund the KKK, or Trump?
One, who said "casual understandable politics"? How is that the same thing as "the US government isn't omnipotent"?

Two, if the Russians or Chinese funded Trump, great. That's an easy way of making sure he gets no votes.

Or if Britain had funded the Confederacy?
Britain still traded with the Confederacy during the war.

The Confederacy is also not Pinochet. But, even if Britain had given tons of cash to the Confederacy, the Confederacy still wouldn't be their fault. It'd still be an organization of the American south.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:18:19 PM by Nihlus1

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#110972: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:18:40 PM

EDIT:[up]You are responsible for what the people you fund and give intelligence to do.

@Nihlus

Yes. Also you're ignoring the more than 30 000 who were tortured or raped, and the thousands more who were illegally arrested. You're ignoring the near total destruction of Chilean intellectual life, the imposition of the military into near every aspect of life, the kidnapping and sale of children (which happened in both Chile and Argentina), and of course, his involvement in Operation: Condor which spread assassination and right-wing terrorism across the continent.

And I hate to break it to you, but the Chilean junta only made their move after they had been assured of CIA support and American funding and recognition. Pinochet himself only joined the coup at the last moment, and only because the CIA convinced the Navy and Air Force that he would be approachable.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:19:55 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#110973: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:19:57 PM

They also built some ships for the Confederacy. After the war we made them pay for the damages those ships caused, as technically their was no such thing as the Confederate States of America.

Edit: Oh and the Confederacy was way worse than Pinochet.

None of this justifies US involvement in the coup, just wanted to put out a quick history lesson.

edited 3rd Feb '16 3:21:06 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110974: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:21:06 PM

Or if Britain had funded the Confederacy?

We came close to arming them I think, then the US ambassador very diplomatically threatened war and we found another buyer for our ships.

Oh no, I saw it. I'm just calling BS because you posted a quote he never said.

If you don't belive that the quote is genuine you can dispute it without being an arse. Well it's possible for a person to, if you can is rather up to you.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110975: Feb 3rd 2016 at 3:22:20 PM

Personal attacks, guys. Don't be making them.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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