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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#110426: Feb 1st 2016 at 1:58:05 PM

[up]I was afraid you were going to ask that. Guess I better go do some research.

edited 1st Feb '16 2:01:23 PM by Bense

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#110427: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:05:17 PM

I am more worried people in the U.S elected the son of a former president with a pitiable amount of experience in politics twice...

The accusations just look ridiculous from all sides, really. Barack's only achievement is being black. Bush's only achievement was being daddy's boy. McCain's only achievement was being a vet. Clinton's only achievement is being a woman/Bill's husband. Romney's was being rich. Al Gore was inventing the internet.

So yeah these sort of accusations just seem silly but to deny Hillary has experience in politics seems just silly.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#110428: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:06:01 PM

It is my experience that most people who call it like they see it are functionally blind.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110429: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:06:41 PM

Clinton may have rather skipped the steps that normally come between being a political ambitious congressional legal counsel and being a US senator, but do we really think she wouldn't have simply climbed the ladder the old fashioned way if she hadn't been able to skip the middle?

Also is it realy that unusual for a relatively unknown political actor to jump strait to the senate based a personal connection to a popular political figure?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#110430: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:33:12 PM

Is it unusual? Not really, no. Is it questionable/improper? That, I think, is the issue that ought to be addressed.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110431: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:36:00 PM

The time to bring it up would have been when she was elected to the Senate. (And it was, as I recall, since the GOP establishment knew even then that Hillary was aiming for the top job.)

All this stuff is old news. And, frankly, raising it now only serves to make it even more blatantly obvious that it's an election year smear tactic, since she's been there and done that: dealt with the charges and accusations many times before. There's nobody left to be swayed by them who isn't already swayed.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#110432: Feb 1st 2016 at 2:50:48 PM

Okay, going by just the senate seat that Hillary was elected to (out of the two in NY):

  • 37 people have held the seat (including Mrs. Clinton and her successor)
  • Of those 37, 4 senators did not hold elected office before they became a senator. Those three are:
    • Robert F. Kennedy. He did live in NY off and on before being elected as a NY senator, but he did not hold elected office before he was elected a senator for NY. He was U.S. Attorney General and deep in his brother's administration, of course.
    • James L. Buckley - he was from NY but hadn't held elected office previously. He was the older brother of famous conservative journalist William F. Buckley, Jr.
    • Daniel Patrick Moynihan - he was from NY, but hadn't held elected office previously. He was previously Assistant Secretary of Labor, a Counselor to President Nixon for Urban Affairs, and Ambassador to India.
    • Hillary.

So, with regard to the specific seat Hillary held, NY never elected someone who had just moved there as senator until Clinton, and of the four people (including Clinton) who hadn't held elected office prior to becoming a senator, three of them had ties to more famous close relatives.

That looks like pretty good support for my position.

edited 1st Feb '16 3:09:12 PM by Bense

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#110433: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:10:50 PM

Congratulations. You have discovered that high ranking positions are sometimes, if not often (if not always) related to the connections that person has.

We refer to this as "Discovering water is wet, and has, indeed, always been wet".

Does this delete the person's previous actual experience and knowledge, or the fact the job they got via a connection gave them surmountable experience? It doesn't.

I can likewise go into ridiculous guesses for Sanders' influence such as his brother, his relationship to the civil rights movement, Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, and Howard Dean as the ones who got him his senate seat in the first place just cuz' those names appear in his wikipedia site and largely gives it credit for helping him achieve his Senatorial position

And the argument can be circular ad infinitum simply because I can just choose to beleive that without those people, sanders would not have been a senator because i am a badass motherfucker who can read the future and past and alternate timelines like that

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110434: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:16:44 PM

Looks like a good argument for Hillary being the next Robert Kennady to me.

Yeah it's kinda sheezy that some politicians jump the line due to being connected to an existing politician, but as I've never got especially upset about it with other politicians and have no plans to do so in the future I'm not gonna get especially upset about it with Hillary.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#110435: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:20:01 PM

I wasn't discovering that water was wet, merely proving it when asked to do so.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110436: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:47:02 PM

Oh a by the by, if we're talking about people who got a quick jump into the big leauge based on personal connections it's worth noting that both Ted Cruz and Rand Paul went strait into the Senate (Paul obviously on the coattails of his dad and Cruz of the back of a lot of endorsements), Jeb also skipped local politics, going strait to being governor, Jeb obviously also got where he is based on his dad.

I think that's why it's hard to get particularly upset about Clinton having skipped local politics, we've got three republicans who did the same thing (two of them because of their dads) and another three who've never held elected office.

I guess score one for Sanders?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#110437: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:50:02 PM

I notice nobody is arguing with my description of Trump. Are there no Trump supporters on this forum, or are they afraid Fighteer will "troll thump" them if they speak up?

edited 1st Feb '16 4:02:12 PM by Bense

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110438: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:51:28 PM

Given the typical leanings of this site I doubt a Trump supporter would last long before angering too many people.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#110439: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:52:00 PM

Well most Trump supporters tend to be Neo Nazi types and people wholly incapable of arguing in good faith and those kind of people aren't allowed on the forums.

There's no possible way to argue in favor of Trump without breaking several OTC rules.

Oh really when?
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#110440: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:53:30 PM

Is it okay to say anything good about Trump?

Like...I'm in awe of his business skills, and admire his charity, and respect his ability to gain supporters even if everybody else hates him.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#110441: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:53:48 PM

[MODO ABOGADO DEL DIABLO]:[ACTIVADO]

Challenge accepted.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110442: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:55:29 PM

Keybreak: I will admit that Trump is an impressive conman and self promoter. He's also very good at getting people to believe whatever comes out of his mouth. That's about the nicest stuff I have to say.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#110443: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:57:06 PM

[up][up][up]You could say that. But all of those things are really untrue.

He's a terrible businessman, many of his ventures have failed and he'd actually have made more money if he put his inheritance in the bank and never touched it again.

edited 1st Feb '16 4:01:05 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110444: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:57:13 PM

We had a few Trump trolls show up, who promptly got cratered with the banhammer. We won't censor anyone's opinion as long as it's reasonably stated and free of overt rules violations, like bigotry and whatnot.

Trump's "business acumen" is rather overblown. Sure, he has a lot of money, but most of it is based around "selling himself", regardless of the actual success of the businesses he owns. He's had a number of notable bankruptcies, and once had to have several hundred million dollars of debt forgiven by a Saudi prince. His best skill is self-promotion. As a businessman, he is mediocre at best and an abject failure at worst, depending on whom you ask.

[nja]

edited 1st Feb '16 3:57:58 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#110445: Feb 1st 2016 at 3:57:41 PM

There's no possible way to argue in favor of Trump without breaking several OTC rules.

Easy, just argue the same way you would for Sanders (single-payer healthcare, anti-immigration, guest worker programs are the devil, upper income tax hikes, anti-free trade, nativism, moderate gun control laws, China's ruining everything, etc,) while dismissing his racist remarks as him trying to appeal to that demographic. Trumps' actual stances would be (incorrectly) cheered by many people if they came from anyone else.

edited 1st Feb '16 3:58:18 PM by Nihlus1

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110446: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:00:17 PM

[up][up][up]I never said anything about being a businessman. I said he's very good at getting people to believe the bullshit he's selling and he's very good at getting his name out there. That much is true.

[up]Look, if you're comfortable with Trump you either approve of what he says or are apathetic towards his views. Either one makes you an asshole.

edited 1st Feb '16 4:01:58 PM by Kostya

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#110447: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:01:22 PM

Sorry, missed a few arrows there.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#110448: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:02:23 PM

[up]X3 Well yeah, Fascism does generally sound nice when you cut out the racist authoritarian bits, thing is they're rather the core of it.

You can't argue for the National Socialists based on the Socialists bit of the name, that's just dishonest.

edited 1st Feb '16 4:03:34 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110449: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:08:26 PM

Anyone who can't tell Trump and Sanders apart is missing crucial logical analysis and critical thinking skills that it is probably way too late to teach.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#110450: Feb 1st 2016 at 4:26:55 PM

Adventures in cringe:

Schild und Schwert der Partei

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