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Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#110176: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:02:29 AM

Well, we're not gonna see much benefit from the TPP, at least. Recent credible studies imply that the US will only gain a mere 0.5% growth from its ratification to 2030. And even this study might be an overstatement. Australia's predicted TPP growth boost is only marginally better.

In other words, not only is it a shitty agreement, the countries that ratify it will have little to actually gain from it.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#110177: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:14:48 AM

@Cronosonic: That's kind of how I see it. Mostly, I view the taxation as simply the most efficient way to fund what I call "Vapor Assets" (there might be a better term for this).

Leviticus 19:34
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#110178: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:28:22 AM

[up]Probably "non-physical assets".

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110179: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:34:23 AM

TPP and TTIP are largely about two things: unrestricted capital flows and intellectual property. The former allows corporations to stash their income in any country they want, shopping around for the lowest tax rates. The latter allows corporations to shut down competition with international IP lawsuits. Neither has any trade advantage that would benefit consumers.

edited 30th Jan '16 7:47:55 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#110180: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:41:15 AM

[up][up]No, I mean to say non-excludable assets. Like, for example, a fire department or a police force. You can't have a police force protect one house without it protecting the whole neighborhood, for example.

Leviticus 19:34
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#110181: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:49:46 AM

I'm reminded of at least one incident where firemen let a house burn down because the family hadn't paid into it. Eeeugh, some weird local thing where it was... I don't know if it was privatized or just some weird local thing? But yeah, taxes should pay for that.

And it should also be made illegal for firemen to just stand by and let things burn down. Jesus that incident still makes me mad.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#110182: Jan 30th 2016 at 7:50:45 AM

It's not the firemen's fault on that one; they were legally prevented from saving the house. But it does illustrate the problem with Libertarian-style privatization of public services.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#110184: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:07:36 AM

[up][up]

Because it's the same effect as health insurance - if you're covered for pre-existing conditions, and have 0 incentive to sign up before getting sick, why bother with it when you can just wait for a major illness before signing up? That strategy would quickly cause insurers to go bankrupt due to having no influx of cash.

It sucks, no question, but it was on both the town for voting to do an individual payment (rather than having it folded into existing taxes), and allowing people to opt whether or not they wanted to pay for coverage.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110185: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:14:33 AM

210 economists support Sanders' plan to raise the minimum wage to at least $15 by 2020:

http://www.budget.senate.gov/democratic/public/index.cfm/2015/7/top-economists-are-backing-sen-bernie-sanders-on-establishing-a-15-an-hour-minimum-wage

170 economists and financial experts support Sanders' plan for Wall Street reform:

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Wall-St-Letter-1.pdf

Robert Reich, President Bill Clinton's Secretary of Labor, is a signer of both lists.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:17:03 AM by SolipsistOwl

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#110186: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:16:25 AM

[up] I may be revealing my ignorance here (not that I've ever denied being ignorant on these matters, especially economics as I tested my way out of high school without taking any classes on the subject) but my immediate thought when I saw the post was "210 economists out of how many?"

edited 30th Jan '16 8:17:41 AM by sgamer82

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110187: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:19:24 AM

[up][up][up]If I'm thinking of the same story it goes a bit further than that. The firemen actually went to the scene to prevent the fire from spreading to other houses but did nothing to stop the house from burning. I'm pretty sure the man even begged them to save his house and offered to pay them on the spot if they'd do it. The fact that something like that is even legal is stupid and borders on dystopia.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:19:38 AM by Kostya

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110188: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:21:13 AM

[up][up]I'm not sure of the divide on economic reform, but the point should be that Sanders isn't just pulling his economic theories out of nowhere, as implied here and elsewhere. There are experts that support him.

It just depends on which group of experts you prefer to trust.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:23:53 AM by SolipsistOwl

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#110189: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:25:49 AM

[up] All right then, what does Economist Thomas Piketty think of Sanders' ideas?

edited 30th Jan '16 8:26:05 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110190: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:25:56 AM

I don't think anyone here is saying he's not basing his numbers on solid data. The basic ideas he's proposing have been proven to work for the most part. He just doesn't provide info on the fine details of how he'd pay for stuff.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#110191: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:27:13 AM

[up][up][up] not directly related to the issue being discussed, but that's kind of the issue all around really, if you think about it. All these people tell us such wildly different things, sometimes on the same subject, it becomes hard to determine who to believe.

I wonder now if that's why so many political discussions have an "I'm right and if you disagree you're automatically wrong and/or an Enemy of the State" mentality to my mind. You go in trusting one side and it eventually turns into you distrusting the other sides automatically regardless of merit.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:27:30 AM by sgamer82

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#110192: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:28:21 AM

A random Googling of names on that $15/hour list found a Spanish anarchist trade unionist, an English professor, and several professors of industrial relations, a field generally concerned with labour standards and not economics per se. 'Top economists' is stretching it a bit; and also dishonest.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110193: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:34:33 AM

[up][up][up][up]Piketty hasn't written about Sanders' proposals, from what I can see.

[up][up][up]How hasn't Sanders stated how he'll pay for his proposals? He's a senator, you know—you can just look up his legislative record. His Medicare-for-All bill has been submitted numerous times.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:34:51 AM by SolipsistOwl

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#110194: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:36:06 AM

Didn't Krugman post an article recently criticizing Sanders "magic asterisks" in his plan?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#110195: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:36:34 AM

More taxes on the wealthy, I suspect. Will need to check their vote record about that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#110196: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:37:14 AM

[up][up] Yeah, but I think SolipsistOwl, at least, dismissed him as a Clinton flunkie.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:37:24 AM by sgamer82

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#110197: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:43:39 AM

[up][up]The Sanders campaign published both his tax reform and spending proposals to his site prior to the last debate, over a week ago. They're not much higher than currently—and in some cases are *lower.*

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals/

https://berniesanders.com/issues/real-tax-reform-policies-that-sen-sanders-has-proposed/

edited 30th Jan '16 8:46:40 AM by SolipsistOwl

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#110198: Jan 30th 2016 at 8:45:43 AM

@ Kostya: Indeed, that's been mentioned ages ago. In fact, I remember posting an article that Krugman linked to on Sanders' Healthcare plans back on...post #109237, on page 4370.

[up]

Piketty hasn't written about Sanders' proposals, from what I can see.

Oh, well. Then again, Piketty is an economist that has proposed a global Wealth Tax, in an attempt to tackle inequality.

edited 30th Jan '16 8:48:56 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#110199: Jan 30th 2016 at 10:10:09 AM

Liz Cheney, Dick Cheney's daughter, is running for Wyoming's only House seat as a Republican.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016

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