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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109951: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:45:18 PM

[up][up][up]I already answered it:

Now, on to the second point. The data does not specifically break down unarmed, non-attacking kills (5%) by race. It does not seem to be available. However, logic would determine that the mystery 5% would have similar racial make-up to the rest, especially since the person who did that study concluded that the main reason blacks were under represented relative to the rate at which they kill officers was because officers deployed to black neighborhoods got better training so they wouldn't be as quick to shoot.

[up][up][up][up][up]Here, I'll just screengrab it. It's table 6 for 2013, "Race, Ethnicity, and Sex of Victim by Race, Ethnicity, and Sex of Offender". It's not the best table I could have used if I was trying to illustrate that blacks commit more murders (though it does show that; black offenders are nearly equal in number to white offenders, despite white Americans being 6 times as numerous as black Americans), but it was the only one that showed people overwhelmingly kill people of the same race as them, which I thought was also important.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:48:54 PM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109952: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:46:15 PM

What that FBI table tells me is that most whites are killed by whites and most blacks are killed by blacks. Not a damning piece of evidence for any particular point of view. It says nothing about blacks "terrorizing" whites, nor does it indicate the converse. It also has no information about police homicides.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:47:43 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109953: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:47:56 PM

That's not an answer, what I'm asking for is the racial makeup of the 10-20% that are unarmed. Again, what is the racial makeup of the 10-20% of unarmed/not attacking people the police shoot?

I do not think those numbers are available but I can tell you that from 2003-2009, there were 2026 arrest related deaths of non hispanic whites, and 1529 arrest related deaths for blacks, and that for the whites, 327 of the deaths were suicide, and for the blacks, 80 were suicide.

Take into account the vast population difference, and there does seem to be something.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:49:11 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109954: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:47:57 PM

So no statistics to back you up, just your own logic and assumptions. I can respect that, but let's not pretend that there are stats to back your argument (or mine) up.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:48:43 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109955: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:49:37 PM

[up]Except there are. You just think that the 5% somehow cancels out the other 95%. And the assumptions on the last 5% aren't even my assumptions, but those of the guy who made the study.

The idea of the tyrannical police shooting tons of innocents because they're racists is not supported by the data. Rather, the data paints a clear and consistent picture that if you got shot by the police, it's because you attacked with/pulled out a knife or a gun, and that if you got shot by police without doing either of those things, the police got twitchy and assumed you were going to.

That's what happens when you have guns everywhere; people get paranoid.

[up][up][up]I've already given mountains of info on police homicides. Relative to their murder rate, and the number of police officers killed by blacks, blacks are under represented, and whites are over represented.

Also, "nothing about blacks "terrorizing" whites"? What the hell are you even saying at this point?

edited 28th Jan '16 1:15:50 PM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109956: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:50:49 PM

Presumably, if police are shooting unarmed whites, there should be some data, even anecdotal, about those incidents and the community and media response to them, plus information on whether the shooting officer(s) were charged.

In this nation, regardless of the race of the victim, it is almost impossible to for the officer involved to get charged, let alone convicted, of wrongdoing.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:51:55 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109957: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:51:44 PM

Incidentally, I will note that I haven't been a fan of some of the posts that did seem to be hoping that the government had opportunity to violently crush the militia people.

On the other hand though, I'm 100% positive that if they had been black and/or represented a cause other than Right-Wing Militia Fanatic, they would have been subjected to a much more violent response with a lot more casualties.

Granted, it's pre-Waco, but look at the MOVE bombing as a comparison.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109958: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:55:21 PM

[up] My right-wing conspiracy-theorist friend brought up MOVE in our argument today over lunch. I was not aware of the incident. In reading about it, it seems like a definite case of excessive use of force by law enforcement, but the people involved were under indictment and/or warrant for numerous serious criminal offenses and were not likely to go peaceably.

I'm not really seeing how that could be read as favorable towards the militia nutballs' case. I suppose the moral is, "Don't start an armed insurrection in the middle of a major city or you will get killed." Captain Fucking Obvious there.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:57:10 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#109959: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:58:15 PM

@Silas: Nicktheswing said he'd advocate for the annihilation of the occupiers. He'd probably say the same thing again if he posted more often here, but it appears he has a thing called a real life and is probably distracted. So yeah, at least one person in this thread is in favor of a violent response to these guys.

Regarding the whole felony charge thing, can the feds except a deal like that legally? I mean, it's a felony charge which means that guy is in serious trouble if they catch him. Seems like the feds would be slow to accept surrender under such conditions. Although I guess there's always the "they could lie and arrest him anyway for it" option. I mean, they're gonna get arrested for the occupation to begin with, nothing saying a prosecutor absolutely has to honor such an agreement. Pretty sure this whole debacle is also some kind of felony.

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109960: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:58:33 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]As you said, pre-Waco. Waco rocked this country and caused a huge shift in how law enforcement worked, because 26 children died and the whole thing was broadcast all over the country. If these were blacks, you'd likely be seeing the same response, because the FBI is aware that this is not a third world country, and that Waco didn't work.

How many mass suicides and massacres have since happened in these type of sieges? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero, or close enough. Which means the change in policy was the correct choice. Contrary to what people in this thread would have you believe.

[up][up][up][up]

In this nation, regardless of the race of the victim, it is almost impossible to for the officer involved to get charged, let alone convicted, of wrongdoing.
You have a tendency of quickly changing the topic when your ideas are disproved, like when outsourcing suddenly turned into income inequality. Yes, the police have some issues, but shooting too many people of a single race is not one of them. This is something that must be solved by comprehensive law reform (especially in regards to gun control), not race-baiting and considering the officers in question subhumans for being paranoid. Or, as people in this thread want, being even more brutal to everybody equally.

edited 28th Jan '16 3:36:47 PM by Nihlus1

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109961: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:00:05 PM

[up]

The MOVE protest was slightly different in that A) it wasn't a government-owned building (point in their favor) and B) the nearby residents complained for years about their behavior (point against). Though with the general reaction to the whole debacle, you're right that it's laden with Unfortunate Implications. Also, the fact that the firefighters on the scene were told not to combat the flames, and instead let 65 houses burn to the ground? That's felony-level disregard for human life, in my book.

@Nihlus

There's a two-fold problem with what you've been citing - as Akbar (not sure if that's the handle, but picture at least tongue) pointed out, there's the Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics to be concerned over.

Aside from that is the evidence about cops not practicing due diligence and not finding the guilty party in a number of cases, instead settling for a "guilty" party, which DNA testing has overturned in a lot of situations as late. Couple that with the evidence of the justice system punishing black and Hispanic people far worse for equal infractions which are primarily drug-possession related, but every now and then you get people like Judge Hudson, who sentenced the "affluenza"-afflicted white teen to Rehab and Juvie for killing more people than a poor, black teen that had killed 1 person, who got 20 years in jail for doing so.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:09:53 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109962: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:01:01 PM

@Fighteer- I think I expressed myself confusingly.

I was saying on one hand that some posts here did kind of seem to be hoping that the militia people would use violence and provoke a violent response. Maybe that's an unfair reading.

On the other hand though, I think the "kid gloves" treatment of the militia people has a huge amount to do with their race and ideology. It's not just Waco (although I have to think that the White House is cognizant of how bad the PR would be if it turned into another Waco).

[up] I'm Hodor/ Hodor 2. Previously had a Thomas Cromwell avatar but changed to this due to a discussion in the Force Awakens thread.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:02:19 PM by Hodor2

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109963: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:02:18 PM

I found the report of the FBI. The complete report, as opposed to the nitpickings. It is here

Funny. The FBI seems to make the relationship between victim/offender by race unless it was made by a private citizen or officer (In which case it is treated as justifiable homicide), and of Justifiable homicides, they just keep the information of what gun was the justifiable homicide made with...Tables 14 and 15 record that.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#109964: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:03:55 PM

this thread goes so fast. Serious Ninja Dojo.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109965: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:04:05 PM

[up][up]Thanks.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:04:17 PM by Hodor2

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109966: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:12:07 PM

Nihilus, I don't think that the 95% cancel out the 5% (well maybe 20%, numbers keep varying), it's just that the conversation is about the 5%. 5% is still dam high, at least I assume that it is. I play enough D&D to find the idea that a person is as likely to get shot by the police despite doing nothing wrong as I am to roll a 1, fucking terrifying.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109967: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:13:24 PM

There's a two-fold problem with what you've been citing - as Akbar (not sure if that's the handle, but picture at least tongue) pointed out, there's the Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics to be concerned over.
The statistics I've cited have been very clear and concise. There's not really much reason to doubt them (except confirmation bias, i.e. "TV told me American cops are racist murderers, so they are"), especially when there has consistently been zero evidence brought up against them. I honestly think that these murder rates are a much bigger problem than a statistically irrelevant number of police shootings, but that's another topic.

Aside from that is the evidence about cops not practicing due diligence and finding the guilty party in a number of cases, which DNA testing has overturned in a lot of situations as late. Couple that with the evidence of the justice system punishing black and Hispanic people far worse for equal infractions which are primarily drug-possession related,
This country's drug laws and sentencing are another topic altogether, probably the most important one.

but every now and then you get people like Judge Hudson, who sentenced the "affluenza"-afflicted white teen to Rehab and Juvie for killing more people than a poor, black teen that had killed 1 person, who got 20 years in jail for doing so.
See, I don't think this helps anyone. The USA is big enough that downright crazy cases like this can occasionally happen, and they're not just limited to white people. You've never heard of a non-white person getting a slap on the wrist for a huge crime they obviously committed?

In terms of actually dealing with crime in this country, it's a total non-sequitur.

On the other hand though, I think the "kid gloves" treatment of the militia people has a huge amount to do with their race and ideology.
Are you kidding? Modern right wing militias are the most Acceptable Targets out there, despite mostly being harmless. If there's any domestic group that the feds could kill unnecessarily and have people cheer them for it (glances around the thread), it would be these guys.

Nihilus, I don't think that the 95% cancel out the 5% (well maybe 20%, numbers keep varying),
5% = the number that the Washington Post found had not attacked someone or brandished a weapon before being shot.

20% = the number who were stated by non-police sources to be unarmed.

it's just that the conversation is about the 5%. 5% is still dam high, at least I assume that it is. I play enough D&D to find the idea that a person is as likely to get shot by the police despite doing nothing wrong as I am to roll a 1, fucking terrifying.
They aren't. That's less than 50 people out of a population of 320 million- and I'm willing to bet that almost all of these killings were accidents, and that in very, very few cases did the cop just want to kill someone. That last 5% is an issue- but it's an issue with gun control, not the police being racist. As the person making that study said, the police deployed to black neighborhoods are more professional, and practice more restraint.

It is also a very tiny issue next to the 14,000 people were murdered by someone else that same year. With like 40% of the cases being a black person murdering another black person.

The point is that people were saying that black people are over represented in police shootings, and that police shoot a very large number of innocent people. As statistics showed this wasn't true, now people are trying to harp on the 5% for which data is not known about their race.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:25:39 PM by Nihlus1

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109968: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:17:43 PM

[up]

They're the most Acceptable Targets in media, but when it comes to law-enforcement interacting with them, it can range from Good Ol' Boys (which is likely incidental with small-town ethics more than anything else) to "Okay, we can't be too harsh because if shit goes sideways, this might cause a lot of copycats".

As for the first paragraph, how often have we seen the Shoot Him, He Has a Wallet! trope of late? Or the militarization of police without military-style training? They get oodles of stuff from the DOD (due to having too much to begin with), but aren't sufficiently trained in de-escalating situations, as we saw in the MOVE situation above, or most recently in Ferguson - and Baltimore just went "Screw it, let them riot for a while without cops around, see how they like it the next morning".

The concern is, again, two-fold - A) you have cops outright lying about the circumstances of the shooting, and B) getting away with it due to the prosecution half-assing things (likely to avoid antagonizing the cops, like Bloomberg did in NYC). This leads to an inherent distrust of police, and my reaction upon hearing about the 8 arrested, 1 dead situation was "I really hope someone had a dash-cam or body-cam on to record it, otherwise shit's about to hit the fan".

edited 28th Jan '16 1:23:30 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109969: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:17:53 PM

This thread is not representative of the US public, what people here cheer for is normally the opposite of what the public cheer for.

Amongst the general public Muslims and Mexicans are the most acceptable targets, we're just a bunch of hipsters.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:18:53 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#109970: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:18:53 PM

Yeah, I can tell you right now that most people around me are sympathetic to these idiots.

I really don't wanna be in the area should this turn into another Ruby Ridge.

Oh really when?
SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#109971: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:29:52 PM

Univision Tracking Poll shows 'nativist' and "just as racist as Trump" Sanders with 62% favorability among Hispanic voters, edging out Clinton (61%).

https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/692818532212543488

edited 28th Jan '16 1:31:04 PM by SolipsistOwl

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109972: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:30:06 PM

Reading a bit more, and with a little help from my friends, I found out a bit more about this information.

The informaiton is either not available to the public, or quite simply, not gathered.

Data Quality Guidelines and strategies for the Federal Bureau of Investigations depend on voluntary information gatherings from each police department. This means that if the NYPD does not want to release the justified homicide rates, they simply dont and there is no penalty for this

Without even getting into how non death related stuff is even harder to track down, The methods are incredibly unreliable and say little about actual crime, not to mention Reports are conflictingly difficult to even make

With only 36% of agencies reporting the crimes to the NIBRS institution, which actually uses a non self report method (A method which sucks) unlike the UCR there is little info known on crime in general.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
majoraoftime (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#109973: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:31:45 PM

"just as racist as Trump"

Hey now, that's being unfair to nihlus – at no point did he say that Sanders was actually using the same racially charged rhetoric as Trump.

That's the point I was trying to make a few pages back – 'nativist' doesn't necessarily mean racist even if it's pretty much always implied.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:33:06 PM by majoraoftime

SolipsistOwl Since: Jan, 2016
#109974: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:33:43 PM

[up]nihlus may not have made that assertion—and I didn't meant to imply he had—but it was a common narrative espoused by certain think-pieces a few months back, during the Black Lives Matter newscycle.

edited 28th Jan '16 1:34:08 PM by SolipsistOwl

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109975: Jan 28th 2016 at 1:36:11 PM

[up][up]It kind of does. Per The Other Wiki, Nativism seems to be all about that racism-based opposition to immigrants (even though it often includes the complaint of taking jobs (jerbs?)). Sanders is not a Nativist, although it would probably be accurate to say he has somewhat Isolationist and Economic Protectionist views.

On the other point, it's been several pages, but my sense was that Nihlus was switching between trying to argue that Sanders was as racist as Trump/was motivated by racism to saying that even if he wasn't, his policies would have the same effect.

At some points it seemed like Nihlus was arguing that anything but open borders and (more importantly) total free trade would be "as bad as Trump".

edited 28th Jan '16 1:38:04 PM by Hodor2


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