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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
What that FBI table tells me is that most whites are killed by whites and most blacks are killed by blacks. Not a damning piece of evidence for any particular point of view. It says nothing about blacks "terrorizing" whites, nor does it indicate the converse. It also has no information about police homicides.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:47:43 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I do not think those numbers are available but I can tell you that from 2003-2009, there were 2026 arrest related deaths of non hispanic whites, and 1529 arrest related deaths for blacks, and that for the whites, 327 of the deaths were suicide, and for the blacks, 80 were suicide.
Take into account the vast population difference, and there does seem to be something.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:49:11 PM by Aszur
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesSo no statistics to back you up, just your own logic and assumptions. I can respect that, but let's not pretend that there are stats to back your argument (or mine) up.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:48:43 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Except there are. You just think that the 5% somehow cancels out the other 95%. And the assumptions on the last 5% aren't even my assumptions, but those of the guy who made the study.
The idea of the tyrannical police shooting tons of innocents because they're racists is not supported by the data. Rather, the data paints a clear and consistent picture that if you got shot by the police, it's because you attacked with/pulled out a knife or a gun, and that if you got shot by police without doing either of those things, the police got twitchy and assumed you were going to.
That's what happens when you have guns everywhere; people get paranoid.
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I've already given mountains of info on police homicides. Relative to their murder rate, and the number of police officers killed by blacks, blacks are under represented, and whites are over represented.
Also, "nothing about blacks "terrorizing" whites"? What the hell are you even saying at this point?
edited 28th Jan '16 1:15:50 PM by Nihlus1
Presumably, if police are shooting unarmed whites, there should be some data, even anecdotal, about those incidents and the community and media response to them, plus information on whether the shooting officer(s) were charged.
In this nation, regardless of the race of the victim, it is almost impossible to for the officer involved to get charged, let alone convicted, of wrongdoing.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:51:55 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Incidentally, I will note that I haven't been a fan of some of the posts that did seem to be hoping that the government had opportunity to violently crush the militia people.
On the other hand though, I'm 100% positive that if they had been black and/or represented a cause other than Right-Wing Militia Fanatic, they would have been subjected to a much more violent response with a lot more casualties.
Granted, it's pre-Waco, but look at the MOVE bombing
as a comparison.
My right-wing conspiracy-theorist friend brought up MOVE in our argument today over lunch. I was not aware of the incident. In reading about it, it seems like a definite case of excessive use of force by law enforcement, but the people involved were under indictment and/or warrant for numerous serious criminal offenses and were not likely to go peaceably.
I'm not really seeing how that could be read as favorable towards the militia nutballs' case. I suppose the moral is, "Don't start an armed insurrection in the middle of a major city or you will get killed." Captain Fucking Obvious there.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:57:10 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@Silas: Nicktheswing said he'd advocate for the annihilation of the occupiers. He'd probably say the same thing again if he posted more often here, but it appears he has a thing called a real life and is probably distracted. So yeah, at least one person in this thread is in favor of a violent response to these guys.
Regarding the whole felony charge thing, can the feds except a deal like that legally? I mean, it's a felony charge which means that guy is in serious trouble if they catch him. Seems like the feds would be slow to accept surrender under such conditions. Although I guess there's always the "they could lie and arrest him anyway for it" option. I mean, they're gonna get arrested for the occupation to begin with, nothing saying a prosecutor absolutely has to honor such an agreement. Pretty sure this whole debacle is also some kind of felony.
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As you said, pre-Waco. Waco rocked this country and caused a huge shift in how law enforcement worked, because 26 children died and the whole thing was broadcast all over the country. If these were blacks, you'd likely be seeing the same response, because the FBI is aware that this is not a third world country, and that Waco didn't work.
How many mass suicides and massacres have since happened in these type of sieges? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero, or close enough. Which means the change in policy was the correct choice. Contrary to what people in this thread would have you believe.
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edited 28th Jan '16 3:36:47 PM by Nihlus1
The MOVE protest was slightly different in that A) it wasn't a government-owned building (point in their favor) and B) the nearby residents complained for years about their behavior (point against). Though with the general reaction to the whole debacle, you're right that it's laden with Unfortunate Implications. Also, the fact that the firefighters on the scene were told not to combat the flames, and instead let 65 houses burn to the ground? That's felony-level disregard for human life, in my book.
@Nihlus
There's a two-fold problem with what you've been citing - as Akbar (not sure if that's the handle, but picture at least
) pointed out, there's the Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics to be concerned over.
Aside from that is the evidence about cops not practicing due diligence and not finding the guilty party in a number of cases, instead settling for a "guilty" party, which DNA testing has overturned in a lot of situations as late. Couple that with the evidence of the justice system punishing black and Hispanic people far worse for equal infractions which are primarily drug-possession related, but every now and then you get people like Judge Hudson, who sentenced the "affluenza"-afflicted white teen to Rehab and Juvie
for killing more people than a poor, black teen that had killed 1 person, who got 20 years in jail for doing so.
edited 28th Jan '16 1:09:53 PM by ironballs16
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"@Fighteer- I think I expressed myself confusingly.
I was saying on one hand that some posts here did kind of seem to be hoping that the militia people would use violence and provoke a violent response. Maybe that's an unfair reading.
On the other hand though, I think the "kid gloves" treatment of the militia people has a huge amount to do with their race and ideology. It's not just Waco (although I have to think that the White House is cognizant of how bad the PR would be if it turned into another Waco).
I'm Hodor/ Hodor 2. Previously had a Thomas Cromwell avatar but changed to this due to a discussion in the Force Awakens thread.
edited 28th Jan '16 1:02:19 PM by Hodor2
I found the report of the FBI. The complete report, as opposed to the nitpickings. It is here
Funny. The FBI seems to make the relationship between victim/offender by race unless it was made by a private citizen or officer (In which case it is treated as justifiable homicide), and of Justifiable homicides, they just keep the information of what gun was the justifiable homicide made with...Tables 14 and 15 record that.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesNihilus, I don't think that the 95% cancel out the 5% (well maybe 20%, numbers keep varying), it's just that the conversation is about the 5%. 5% is still dam high, at least I assume that it is. I play enough D&D to find the idea that a person is as likely to get shot by the police despite doing nothing wrong as I am to roll a 1, fucking terrifying.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIn terms of actually dealing with crime in this country, it's a total non-sequitur.
20% = the number who were stated by non-police sources to be unarmed.
It is also a very tiny issue next to the 14,000 people were murdered by someone else that same year. With like 40% of the cases being a black person murdering another black person.
The point is that people were saying that black people are over represented in police shootings, and that police shoot a very large number of innocent people. As statistics showed this wasn't true, now people are trying to harp on the 5% for which data is not known about their race.
edited 28th Jan '16 1:25:39 PM by Nihlus1
They're the most Acceptable Targets in media, but when it comes to law-enforcement interacting with them, it can range from Good Ol' Boys (which is likely incidental with small-town ethics more than anything else) to "Okay, we can't be too harsh because if shit goes sideways, this might cause a lot of copycats".
As for the first paragraph, how often have we seen the Shoot Him, He Has a Wallet! trope of late? Or the militarization of police without military-style training? They get oodles of stuff from the DOD (due to having too much to begin with), but aren't sufficiently trained in de-escalating situations, as we saw in the MOVE situation above, or most recently in Ferguson - and Baltimore just went "Screw it, let them riot for a while without cops around, see how they like it the next morning".
The concern is, again, two-fold - A) you have cops outright lying about the circumstances of the shooting, and B) getting away with it due to the prosecution half-assing things (likely to avoid antagonizing the cops, like Bloomberg did in NYC). This leads to an inherent distrust of police, and my reaction upon hearing about the 8 arrested, 1 dead situation was "I really hope someone had a dash-cam or body-cam on to record it, otherwise shit's about to hit the fan".
edited 28th Jan '16 1:23:30 PM by ironballs16
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"This thread is not representative of the US public, what people here cheer for is normally the opposite of what the public cheer for.
Amongst the general public Muslims and Mexicans are the most acceptable targets, we're just a bunch of hipsters.
edited 28th Jan '16 1:18:53 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranUnivision Tracking Poll shows 'nativist' and "just as racist as Trump" Sanders with 62% favorability among Hispanic voters, edging out Clinton (61%).
https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/692818532212543488
edited 28th Jan '16 1:31:04 PM by SolipsistOwl
Reading a bit more, and with a little help from my friends, I found out a bit more about this information.
The informaiton is either not available to the public, or quite simply, not gathered.
Data Quality Guidelines
and strategies for the Federal Bureau of Investigations depend on voluntary information gatherings from each police department. This means that if the NYPD does not want to release the justified homicide rates, they simply dont and there is no penalty for this
Without even getting into how non death related stuff is even harder to track down
, The methods are incredibly unreliable and say little
about actual crime, not to mention Reports are conflictingly difficult to even make
With only 36% of agencies reporting the crimes to the NIBRS institution, which actually uses a non self report method (A method which sucks) unlike the UCR there is little info known on crime in general.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothesHey now, that's being unfair to nihlus – at no point did he say that Sanders was actually using the same racially charged rhetoric as Trump.
That's the point I was trying to make a few pages back – 'nativist' doesn't necessarily mean racist even if it's pretty much always implied.
edited 28th Jan '16 1:33:06 PM by majoraoftime
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It kind of does. Per The Other Wiki, Nativism seems to be all about that racism-based opposition to immigrants (even though it often includes the complaint of taking jobs (jerbs?)). Sanders is not a Nativist, although it would probably be accurate to say he has somewhat Isolationist and Economic Protectionist views.
On the other point, it's been several pages, but my sense was that Nihlus was switching between trying to argue that Sanders was as racist as Trump/was motivated by racism to saying that even if he wasn't, his policies would have the same effect.
At some points it seemed like Nihlus was arguing that anything but open borders and (more importantly) total free trade would be "as bad as Trump".
edited 28th Jan '16 1:38:04 PM by Hodor2

edited 28th Jan '16 12:48:54 PM by Nihlus1