TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109926: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:56:20 AM

[up][up]No, the FBI's data covers all law enforcement where data is available. It's how we know about stuff like each state's murder rate.

The people in this study filled in the gaps (because race wasn't noted in every case) with "Killed by Police", which extensively documents those killed via local news reports, which are more likely to report race.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:57:10 AM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109927: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:56:59 AM

Do the data distinguish whether people killed by police were armed at the time?

I don't get you, though. Why stand up for the militants if you don't believe in their platform? Very few people are seriously advocating that they be gunned down like dogs. However, if they do wave guns around at cops, they should be shot for their stupidity. Hell, at least that would put them on equal footing with blacks in an equivalent situation.

Yes, the BATF screwed up at Waco, but those people were not coming out peaceably. Since then, training and procedures have improved dramatically. Bundy and his nutjob friends live in a world where we teeter at the precipice of a totalitarian state and they are the sole bulwark against it. Evidence for and against this is irrelevant.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:00:27 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109928: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:58:14 AM

Saw that and was editing, everyone respond to fast.

Here's my edit.

Thign is we're specifically talking about the unjustified ones, what percentage of unjustified police shooting victims do blacks make up? That's the number that matters, I don't think people are particularly bothered about armed people being shot by the police, it's the unarmed ones we care about, and they seem to mainly be black.

As for Waco, has anyone in this situation actually called for a guns blazing approach? That seems like a strawman.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#109929: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:59:18 AM

Why storm when you can drone?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109930: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:01:26 PM

[up][up][up]It only records whether the person pulled out or fired a gun, not any other kind of weapon. Presumably those armed with another weapon would fall into the "other threat" [besides pulling out a gun] and "attacked by other means" [besides with a gun] categories. That would mean 90% were armed (or tried to wrestle a gun away while unarmed; more common than you'd think), roughly; that's close enough with most data I've seen from elsewhere, which records roughly 80% of people shot by police as being armed.

Anyway, from that study, as it seems I made a slight mathematical error:

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

don't get you, though. Why stand up for the militants if you don't believe in their platform?
So you have to agree with someone's politics to be against shooting them to death?

That says a lot about this thread, I guess.

Very few people are seriously advocating that they be gunned down like dogs. However, if they do wave guns around at cops, they should be shot for their stupidity. Hell, at least that would put them on equal footing with blacks in an equivalent situation.
In 99% of those "equivalent situations", it was a life or death situation. These idiots are hold up in an abandoned building with no hostages.

And whites are already over represented in police shootings. Presumably this is not because police hate whites more than blacks, but because having a lot of guns around makes people twitchy, and statistically a white is more likely to end up on the end of a twitchy officer than a black.

Yes, the BATF screwed up at Waco, but those people were not coming out peaceably. Since then, training and procedures have improved dramatically.
Yes, which is why the FBI have been acting in a way contrary to how people in this thread want them to act.

Bundy and his nutjob friends live in a world where we teeter at the precipice of a totalitarian state and they are the sole bulwark against it. Evidence for and against this is irrelevant.
Yet several of them were just arrested without shooting anyone.

No, you do not need to respond to every potentially dangerous situation with gunfire (as those twitchy cops do, but at least they have an excuse). We're not a fucking third world country.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:07:35 PM by Nihlus1

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109931: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:04:35 PM

That still doesn't give us numbers on unarmed victims, your dodging the question. This discussion isn't about what happens to armed suspects, it's about what happens to unarmed ones.

As for the numbers, shouldn't whites be 8.something times more likely to die at the hands of the police? As they make up 8.something times more of the population?

edited 28th Jan '16 12:05:07 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109932: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:12:05 PM

[up]Whites being x8 more numerous than blacks (12%) would mean that the United States has more than 100% population.tongue

I didn't doge any question. I answered it thoroughly; 90% were either armed, or attacked unarmed, according to the Washington Post study. According to separate study, 80% of victims of police shootings are armed. If you really want to stretch it, that'd leave 20% of shootings in doubt rather than the official 10% (by assuming scenarios where an unarmed person tries to wrestle away a gun never happen).

Actually, no. Because blacks, despite being 12% of the population, are 44% of murders (as shown by above, almost all of these murderers kill another black person), and 40-50% of police killers.

Again, there is a very big problem with those numbers. But it's not the number of people killed by police.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:14:02 PM by Nihlus1

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109933: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:12:12 PM

One thing I'm also wondering- in a lot of these unarmed shootings, there have been false reports of suspects being armed and/or attempting to attack police. Do the statistics account for that?

I'm also a bit suspicious of that imigur link to FBI crime statistics crime rates. I vaguely remember seeing that chart being posted by conservative groups and being a misinterpretation of actual crime statistics.

Know-age Since: May, 2010
#109934: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:14:20 PM

I don't really support the rancher/occupiers, but I think it's stupid/evil to be openly fantasizing about them being killed. I also get the impression that people hate them for being Stupid Rednecks and for Defying The State, which are in my opinion bad reasons to hate someone.

It's also really weird that you think "no one wants them to be killed" when people posting in this thread clearly do.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#109935: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:16:33 PM

Well, we don't want them killed. We don't want someone trying to tackle-hug a bear cub in front of its mother to get mauled, either, but that's what happens if you do that sort of thing. But it's not happening here, even though there's no real reason why the police wouldn't bring out guns for an armed insurgence.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109936: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:16:54 PM

Well. I frankly do not care much about gun stuff because since I do not even live in the U.S, or enjoy guns. But lemme take a gander at those statistics from what I can dig up that is not imgur or some reporter.

I am going to quote these things from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in its Arrest related deaths report that gathers info from 2003-2009

Of reported persons who died during the process of arrest, 95 percent were male. About 42 percent were white, 32 percent were black/African American and 20 percent were Hispanic or Latino. More than half (55 percent) were between ages 25 and 44, and juveniles (persons under age 18) were about three percent of all arrest-related deaths.

Those raw numbers tells us that whites disproportinately die a lot more than blacks, but...

Among persons who committed suicide during the process of arrest, 60 percent were white, 20 percent were Hispanic or Latino and 15 percent were black/African American. About 12 percent of persons who committed suicide during the process of arrest allegedly committed homicide during or prior to the arrest.

This is, however, just the press rlease lemme see if I can dig up more.

Just a bit more info.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:17:34 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109937: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:17:22 PM

[up][up][up][up]Again, if you think the FBI statistics are a government conspiracy (btw, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that many suspects were officially listed as armed when they weren't, and that they're statistically relevant), the other sources I cited are not from the government.

At this point, it just seems like confirmation bias. People think that the police are racist loons rather than just being generally paranoid about gun violence (in a country with probably hundreds of millions of handguns) like everyone else, and that the police kill a lot of unarmed people rather than 80-90% of their victims being armed, so every source that says otherwise must be wrong.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:18:36 PM by Nihlus1

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109938: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:18:20 PM

No, I don't think the statistics are a government conspiracy. I just wasn't sure/was skeptical that the imigur link you provided were the actual statistics.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109939: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:19:48 PM

I didn't doge any question. I answered it thoroughly; 90% were either armed, or attacked unarmed, according to the Washington Post study. According to separate study, 80% of victims of police shootings are armed. If you really want to stretch it, that'd leave 20% of shootings in doubt rather than the official 10% (by assuming scenarios where an unarmed person tries to wrestle away a gun never happen).

That's not an answer, what I'm asking for is the racial makeup of the 10-20% that are unarmed. Again, what is the racial makeup of the 10-20% of unarmed/not attacking people the police shoot?

And yeah I got my maths a bit wrong, that should be 7.something, my basic point still stands though. And the fact that blacks make up a large percentage of killers doesn't have any relevance on the fact that they make up a larger then standard percentage of unarmed victims of police shootings.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:22:07 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109940: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:21:18 PM

[up][up]Nope, they're on the FBI's website and everything.

[up]First of all, from reading the report more:

In 74 percent of all fatal police shootings, the individuals had already fired shots, brandished a gun or attacked a person with a weapon or their bare hands, according to an analysis of actions immediately preceding the shootings, which draws on reports from law enforcement agencies and local media coverage. These 595 cases include fatal shootings that followed a wide range of violent crimes, including shootouts, stabbings, hostage situations, carjackings and assaults.

Another 16 percent of the shootings came after incidents that did not involve firearms or active attacks but featured other potentially dangerous threats. These shootings were most commonly of individuals who brandished knives and refused to drop them.

So yeah... 91% are confirmed to have been armed, or attacked someone unarmed. 4% are unknowns.

Now, on to the second point. The data does not specifically break down unarmed, non-attacking kills (5%) by race. However, logic would determine that the mystery 5% would have similar racial make-up to the rest, especially since the person who did that study concluded that the main reason blacks were under represented relative to the rate at which they kill officers was because officers deployed to black neighborhoods got better training so they wouldn't be as quick to shoot.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:30:30 PM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109941: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:22:12 PM

Also, what proportion of incidents in which a police response led to the shooting of an armed suspect were drug-related, what proportion of those drug-related incidents involved marijuana, and of those, what was the rate at which blacks were involved over whites? By way of comparison, official statistics show that marijuana use is roughly equal between blacks and whites, but arrests and prison sentences for it are massively higher for blacks.

Addendum: You claim not to be right-wing, but you defend Bundy and recite conservative attempts to debunk crime statistics employed by the left. What's the game?

edited 28th Jan '16 12:27:17 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109942: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:22:48 PM

[up][up]This page does not seem to exist...

(Note- Was a link to an actual FBI page/url on the issue but seems to be down)

edited 28th Jan '16 12:23:03 PM by Hodor2

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109943: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:24:39 PM

Also what percentage of armed blacks are shot without doing anything illegal/threatening compared to armed whites. Having a gun isn't actually illegal even if you a re black.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109944: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:26:17 PM

Damn. I keep forgetting I am latino and hence my posts and info about the U.S are invisible :(

I am going to go back to talking about Trump being silly.

I mean! Look at his toupee! Hilarity Ensues

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109945: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:37:28 PM

[up][up]I'm trying not to sound short, but please read the statistics. 91% either attacked an officer or pulled a weapon (usually a gun) on an officer, threatened them, and potentially refused to drop it when ordered. These are illegal, and I feel confident in saying that you'd shoot someone who did this if you were a police officer.

Again, confirmation bias.

[up][up][up]Works fine for me...

I can just screengrab it and post the image somewhere if you keep having problems.

[up][up][up][up]Why does marijuana matter in a contest of who pulled a weapon on/outright attacked an officer?

Addendum: You claim not to be right-wing, but you defend Bundy and recite conservative attempts to debunk crime statistics employed by the left.
And here we come back to "you don't have to kill them" = "defending them". Which one of us is the right wing troll again?

What statistics? I'm the only one here who's actually posted any data. Someone tried to say it wasn't actually the FBI's data, I posted a link that proved it was. What else is there?

What's the game?
What game? Common sense and education does not make someone a right winger or a left winger.

edited 28th Jan '16 12:40:54 PM by Nihlus1

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109947: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:40:18 PM

With Oregon, apparently the remaining handful of protesters want to leave peacefully, but will fight if there's a prospect of getting arrested. Of course, this also includes the tidbit that one of them is already wanted for a Felony charge, and he's coincidentally the same fuckwit that did the video calling for more support and to gun down anyone that tries to stop said support.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109948: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:40:24 PM

[up]X3 The nice thing about you constantly dodging the question is that I can just copy paste myself from further up.

That's not an answer, what I'm asking for is the racial makeup of the 10-20% that are unarmed. Again, what is the racial makeup of the 10-20% of unarmed/not attacking people the police shoot?

edited 28th Jan '16 12:40:37 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#109949: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:41:16 PM

[up]

* Shrug *

Somehow, I have the sneaky suspicion that information is not available.

Keep Rolling On
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109950: Jan 28th 2016 at 12:42:22 PM

If Nihilus wants to admit that then that's fine. Oh and the FBI page needs an url shortener, I got it to work by checking the url for where the forum added to it and taking out the random characters.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Total posts: 417,856
Top