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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Do the data distinguish whether people killed by police were armed at the time?
I don't get you, though. Why stand up for the militants if you don't believe in their platform? Very few people are seriously advocating that they be gunned down like dogs. However, if they do wave guns around at cops, they should be shot for their stupidity. Hell, at least that would put them on equal footing with blacks in an equivalent situation.
Yes, the BATF screwed up at Waco, but those people were not coming out peaceably. Since then, training and procedures have improved dramatically. Bundy and his nutjob friends live in a world where we teeter at the precipice of a totalitarian state and they are the sole bulwark against it. Evidence for and against this is irrelevant.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:00:27 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Saw that and was editing, everyone respond to fast.
Here's my edit.
Thign is we're specifically talking about the unjustified ones, what percentage of unjustified police shooting victims do blacks make up? That's the number that matters, I don't think people are particularly bothered about armed people being shot by the police, it's the unarmed ones we care about, and they seem to mainly be black.
As for Waco, has anyone in this situation actually called for a guns blazing approach? That seems like a strawman.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
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It only records whether the person pulled out or fired a gun, not any other kind of weapon. Presumably those armed with another weapon would fall into the "other threat" [besides pulling out a gun] and "attacked by other means" [besides with a gun] categories. That would mean 90% were armed (or tried to wrestle a gun away while unarmed; more common than you'd think), roughly; that's close enough with most data I've seen from elsewhere, which records roughly 80% of people shot by police as being armed.
Anyway, from that study, as it seems I made a slight mathematical error:
That says a lot about this thread, I guess.
And whites are already over represented in police shootings. Presumably this is not because police hate whites more than blacks, but because having a lot of guns around makes people twitchy, and statistically a white is more likely to end up on the end of a twitchy officer than a black.
No, you do not need to respond to every potentially dangerous situation with gunfire (as those twitchy cops do, but at least they have an excuse). We're not a fucking third world country.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:07:35 PM by Nihlus1
That still doesn't give us numbers on unarmed victims, your dodging the question. This discussion isn't about what happens to armed suspects, it's about what happens to unarmed ones.
As for the numbers, shouldn't whites be 8.something times more likely to die at the hands of the police? As they make up 8.something times more of the population?
edited 28th Jan '16 12:05:07 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Whites being x8 more numerous than blacks (12%) would mean that the United States has more than 100% population.
I didn't doge any question. I answered it thoroughly; 90% were either armed, or attacked unarmed, according to the Washington Post study. According to separate study,
80% of victims of police shootings are armed. If you really want to stretch it, that'd leave 20% of shootings in doubt rather than the official 10% (by assuming scenarios where an unarmed person tries to wrestle away a gun never happen).
Actually, no. Because blacks, despite being 12% of the population, are 44% of murders (as shown by above, almost all of these murderers kill another black person), and 40-50% of police killers.
Again, there is a very big problem with those numbers. But it's not the number of people killed by police.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:14:02 PM by Nihlus1
One thing I'm also wondering- in a lot of these unarmed shootings, there have been false reports of suspects being armed and/or attempting to attack police. Do the statistics account for that?
I'm also a bit suspicious of that imigur link to FBI crime statistics crime rates. I vaguely remember seeing that chart being posted by conservative groups and being a misinterpretation of actual crime statistics.
I don't really support the rancher/occupiers, but I think it's stupid/evil to be openly fantasizing about them being killed. I also get the impression that people hate them for being Stupid Rednecks and for Defying The State, which are in my opinion bad reasons to hate someone.
It's also really weird that you think "no one wants them to be killed" when people posting in this thread clearly do.
Well, we don't want them killed. We don't want someone trying to tackle-hug a bear cub in front of its mother to get mauled, either, but that's what happens if you do that sort of thing. But it's not happening here, even though there's no real reason why the police wouldn't bring out guns for an armed insurgence.
Well. I frankly do not care much about gun stuff because since I do not even live in the U.S, or enjoy guns. But lemme take a gander at those statistics from what I can dig up that is not imgur or some reporter.
I am going to quote these things from the Bureau of Justice Statistics
, in its Arrest related deaths
report that gathers info from 2003-2009
Those raw numbers tells us that whites disproportinately die a lot more than blacks, but...
This is, however, just the press rlease lemme see if I can dig up more.
Just a bit more info.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:17:34 PM by Aszur
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes![]()
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Again, if you think the FBI statistics are a government conspiracy (btw, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that many suspects were officially listed as armed when they weren't, and that they're statistically relevant), the other sources I cited are not from the government.
At this point, it just seems like confirmation bias. People think that the police are racist loons rather than just being generally paranoid about gun violence (in a country with probably hundreds of millions of handguns) like everyone else, and that the police kill a lot of unarmed people rather than 80-90% of their victims being armed, so every source that says otherwise must be wrong.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:18:36 PM by Nihlus1
That's not an answer, what I'm asking for is the racial makeup of the 10-20% that are unarmed. Again, what is the racial makeup of the 10-20% of unarmed/not attacking people the police shoot?
And yeah I got my maths a bit wrong, that should be 7.something, my basic point still stands though. And the fact that blacks make up a large percentage of killers doesn't have any relevance on the fact that they make up a larger then standard percentage of unarmed victims of police shootings.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:22:07 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
Nope
, they're on the FBI's website and everything.
First of all, from reading the report more:
Another 16 percent of the shootings came after incidents that did not involve firearms or active attacks but featured other potentially dangerous threats. These shootings were most commonly of individuals who brandished knives and refused to drop them.
Now, on to the second point. The data does not specifically break down unarmed, non-attacking kills (5%) by race. However, logic would determine that the mystery 5% would have similar racial make-up to the rest, especially since the person who did that study concluded that the main reason blacks were under represented relative to the rate at which they kill officers was because officers deployed to black neighborhoods got better training so they wouldn't be as quick to shoot.
edited 28th Jan '16 12:30:30 PM by Nihlus1
Also, what proportion of incidents in which a police response led to the shooting of an armed suspect were drug-related, what proportion of those drug-related incidents involved marijuana, and of those, what was the rate at which blacks were involved over whites? By way of comparison, official statistics show that marijuana use is roughly equal between blacks and whites, but arrests and prison sentences for it are massively higher for blacks.
Addendum: You claim not to be right-wing, but you defend Bundy and recite conservative attempts to debunk crime statistics employed by the left. What's the game?
edited 28th Jan '16 12:27:17 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Also what percentage of armed blacks are shot without doing anything illegal/threatening compared to armed whites. Having a gun isn't actually illegal even if you a re black.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranDamn. I keep forgetting I am latino and hence my posts and info about the U.S are invisible :(
I am going to go back to talking about Trump being silly.
I mean! Look at his toupee! Hilarity Ensues
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes![]()
I'm trying not to sound short, but please read the statistics. 91% either attacked an officer or pulled a weapon (usually a gun) on an officer, threatened them, and potentially refused to drop it when ordered. These are illegal, and I feel confident in saying that you'd shoot someone who did this if you were a police officer.
Again, confirmation bias.
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Works fine for me...
I can just screengrab it and post the image somewhere if you keep having problems.
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Why does marijuana matter in a contest of who pulled a weapon on/outright attacked an officer?
What statistics? I'm the only one here who's actually posted any data. Someone tried to say it wasn't actually the FBI's data, I posted a link that proved it was. What else is there?
edited 28th Jan '16 12:40:54 PM by Nihlus1
edited 28th Jan '16 12:47:52 PM by Hodor2
With Oregon, apparently the remaining handful of protesters want to leave peacefully, but will fight if there's a prospect of getting arrested
. Of course, this also includes the tidbit that one of them is already wanted for a Felony charge, and he's coincidentally the same fuckwit that did the video calling for more support and to gun down anyone that tries to stop said support.
X3 The nice thing about you constantly dodging the question is that I can just copy paste myself from further up.
That's not an answer, what I'm asking for is the racial makeup of the 10-20% that are unarmed. Again, what is the racial makeup of the 10-20% of unarmed/not attacking people the police shoot?
edited 28th Jan '16 12:40:37 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIf Nihilus wants to admit that then that's fine. Oh and the FBI page needs an url shortener, I got it to work by checking the url for where the forum added to it and taking out the random characters.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The people in this study filled in the gaps (because race wasn't noted in every case) with "Killed by Police", which extensively documents those killed via local news reports, which are more likely to report race.
edited 28th Jan '16 11:57:10 AM by Nihlus1