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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109901: Jan 28th 2016 at 8:52:03 AM

Double Post: Apparently, Ted Cruz made a show of sending bottled water to Flint, Michigan residents, but only to the ones who support banning abortion. I can't make this shit up.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109902: Jan 28th 2016 at 8:57:32 AM

what is more likely is a series of bombings, suicide if you're lucky (since that kills off the idiots, meaning there is one less idiot to worry about) and a campaign similar to the nastier parts of The Troubles if you're not

Oh come now. Comparing them with The Troubles? They are not in nearly the same situation. They are just idiots who think they are important cuz they found ideological circlejerks online and think they have an army.

They are like anonymous but unlike anon they cant actually harm shit online and so they take to the only way an uneducatedm unskilled imbecile can do harm: A gun. I doubt they could even make an IED unless they accidentally lit themselves on fire while drunk.

[up] Oh Cruz. You are crazy but Trump still has you beat. E for effort though. Have a Gold Star on your forehead for your pursuit of happiness through douchebaggery

edited 28th Jan '16 9:02:48 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109903: Jan 28th 2016 at 8:59:55 AM

That's not true, unfortunately. The FBI keeps close tabs on these homegrown militants because they can and have carried out successful bombings and other attacks in the past. That they are not as violent or as virulent as al Qaeda is more from a lack of support than a lack of intent. The American political landscape doesn't really condone these dudes and views them as comical. They can't find enough motivated people to join their cause to make it a credible terrorist force.

Ironically, we enjoy too much freedom and social stability to generate the necessary hatred to inspire fanatical terrorist attacks except among a tiny group of delusional paranoiacs. Don't make the mistake of thinking that their ineffectiveness at a national level means they aren't dangerous individually.

One other thing: There is no real tradition of suicide attacks in the American militant movement. These guys hate everything government and police-related, but they want to survive. That strictly limits what they can accomplish.

edited 28th Jan '16 9:04:28 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#109904: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:04:26 AM

[up][up][up] Posted that earlier. Yeah, it's fucked up.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109905: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:05:18 AM

Any idiot with a gun can kill dozens of people. It is the only way they could ever get to be someone in their lives, considering they have no chance of going anywhere.

Unless they get into reality TV.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#109906: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:15:43 AM

So far as we know, the Oregon militia hasn't attacked the police, except for Lavoy Finicum, who got killed for his trouble. The issue isn't so much that Y'all Qaeda is being handled badly, just that the American justice system doesn't show the same restraint or professionalism with black lawbreakers.

The people salivating at the idea of them getting slaughtered by the Federals need to have a word with themselves. Trying to resolve things peacefully should be the first priority in any law enforcement situation, only to be abandoned if there is no other option.

edited 28th Jan '16 9:16:13 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109907: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:32:30 AM

We're just tired of their BS and of how much the police go out of their way to avoid violence with the militia assholes while being only to happy to arrest and shoot minorities for far more trivial offenses than occupying a federal building and/or threatening an armed conflict with federal officials.

edited 28th Jan '16 9:33:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109908: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:34:19 AM

Actually, what I said is a great idea. Offer them a reality TV show.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#109909: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:35:28 AM

Something worth noting is that, since the occupiers have set up camp in a Federal building, they're officially the FBI's responsibility. Meanwhile, all the stories of trigger happy police officers we've heard lately? Those have all been about local police officers; I can't recall any that involved FBI agents. Notably, the only shooting that's occurred so far happened when some local cops pulled over the occupiers' car; at the actual site of the occupation, where the FBI is in charge, things have been peaceful.

So maybe the lesson to take away from all this is that the FBI is much better at deescalating these sorts of situations than your average local police officer.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109912: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:42:11 AM

But when I play videogames and the FBI is called, all they do is shoot at me! Also in movies, FBI is shooting stuff!

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#109913: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:42:42 AM

But they're better at it than the local cops, right?

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#109914: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:43:00 AM

I believe that the FBI was involved in the arrest at the traffic stop. It was a deliberate move to take those individuals into custody, not a random stop that happened to catch involve them. The guy that was killed is on the record as saying that he'd die before he let himself be arrested, so I don't find it hard to believe that he put himself in a situation where killing him was the only available option.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109915: Jan 28th 2016 at 9:44:47 AM

Reports indicate that one vehicle involved in the stop tried to evade the roadblock and became stuck in snow. One of its occupants emerged brandishing a weapon and was shot and killed. And yes, it was a deliberate interception of those militants by the FBI.

edited 28th Jan '16 9:45:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#109916: Jan 28th 2016 at 10:56:42 AM

The guy who got shot was that Finicum guy, who was recorded saying he'd rather die than end up in a cell. So the idea that he attempted suicide by cop is probably pretty accurate.

And quite frankly, we really don't need the FBI or local cops giving those guys the blaze of glory martyrdom that they want. I understand the frustration regarding how differently black people are treated and all, but deciding that just shooting everyone is the way to get equality is the shit stupidest, most unhelpful way to achieve that. Anyone suggesting that they ought to do such isn't helping the situation.

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109917: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:13:22 AM

We're just tired of their BS and of how much the police go out of their way to avoid violence with the militia assholes while being only to happy to arrest and shoot minorities for far more trivial offenses than occupying a federal building and/or threatening an armed conflict with federal officials
No, it's because people in this thread are from an alternate universe where Waco didn't happen, and also fail to see the irony of salivating over right wingers being put down in a huge gunfight with extreme force at the smallest excuse while at the same time decrying the police for being too militarized and trigger happy.

The part about minorities (by which people mean "black", because Asians almost never got shot by the police) getting shot for nothing is horribly exaggerated, by the way. Blacks are half of all police killers, nearly half of all murderers, yet rather less than half of all police shootings. And 4/5 of police shootings are of armed suspects/criminals, with the last 1/5 likely being the result of the possibility that the suspect COULD be armed. That's what happens when your country is handgun central, the cops and civilians develop a culture of fear. Contrast the UK; they don't have nearly as many police killings of unarmed people, but then again a grand total of zero British officers in 2015 were killed by guns, vs several dozen (39) Americans.

So far as we know, the Oregon militia hasn't attacked the police, except for Lavoy Finicum, who got killed for his trouble. The issue isn't so much that Y'all Qaeda is being handled badly, just that the American justice system doesn't show the same restraint or professionalism with black lawbreakers.
They don't show perfect restraint with any lawbreakers, because they could always be one second away from getting shot, in their mind. By the logic of people in this thread, the police actually aren't shooting enough black lawbreakers, since the proportion of blacks killed by the police (roughly one third of all shootings) is lower than the proportion of blacks who kill police (roughly 40% of all police killers) or other people in general (44% of all murderers).

A siege is also rather different from most situations where someone gets shot.

The people salivating at the idea of them getting slaughtered by the Federals need to have a word with themselves. Trying to resolve things peacefully should be the first priority in any law enforcement situation, only to be abandoned if there is no other option.
Hey! Are you one of those so-called "reasonable" folk? We don't take too kindly to your type 'round here.tongue Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:29:12 AM by Nihlus1

Know-age Since: May, 2010
#109918: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:15:53 AM

Yeah, these guys are staging a glorified sit in. They also have a valid point that the rancher (as far as I can tell) was given a ridiculous mandatory minimum for basically nothing.

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109919: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:18:14 AM

They also occupied the building without taking hostages, so no one is in immediate danger. There really is no justification for storming the place and gunning them all down rather than waiting them out.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#109920: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:27:21 AM

That they are not as violent or as virulent as al Qaeda is more from a lack of support than a lack of intent. The American political landscape doesn't really condone these dudes and views them as comical. They can't find enough motivated people to join their cause to make it a credible terrorist force.
This reminds me of that Mel Brooks quote where he said his life's goal was to make Hitler look as ridiculous as possible so his ideas would never be taken seriously again.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109921: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:27:33 AM

Nihilus your numbers on black people shot by the police are wrong, as it only counts the justified ones, thus it doesn't count the unarmed black people getting shot.

Also it's a raw numbers thing and not a percentage compared to percentage of the population thing, which is what you'd need. Plus you don't source your thing beyond the picture, we've no idea where it came from.

Please repeat statistics 101, you appear to have failed it.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:29:35 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109922: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:34:33 AM

Waco was a situation in which Federal agents committed some serious situational errors, but it cannot be forgotten that the whole thing started when a lawful warrant was served on the occupants of the compound and law enforcement officers were met with the threat of violence.

Police have the lawful right to enter a premises and serve a warrant. Impeding this right is in and of itself a felony offense. The error at Waco was that the cops failed to properly de-escalate the situation, not that it was their fault to begin with. The residents of that compound killed themselves rather than face capture.

The idea that this event is the justification for armed insurrection is frivolous. It serves only to reinforce a pre-existing belief system. The error of Waco and related incidents is that the agents, by failing to handle the situation properly, made it worse, but that is not the same as saying that they "murdered helpless civilians".

The residents of the compound, just like the occupants of Malheur, were engaged in unlawful behavior for which the police were entirely justified by their rights and duties to arrest them. At no point is it justified to shoot back at a law enforcement officer who is engaged in the execution of his duty.

I guarantee you that if the occupants of Malheur were immigrants, or BLM activists or whatever, Bundy's "militiamen" would be marching up there to smoke 'em out, not support them.


Also, Nihlus, your attempt to poison-pill Bernie Sanders on the basis of economics was a clue, but now you've given yourself away as a right-wing concern troll by standing up for these assholes.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:38:44 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109923: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:37:14 AM

Nihilus your numbers on black people shot by the police are wrong, as it only counts the justified ones, thus it doesn't count the unarmed black people getting shot.
"Justified police shootings" is the label applied to more or less all of them. There is only reasonable doubt in 10% of cases. In the majority of police shootings, the suspect had at first fired or pulled out a gun in response to the police.

Also it's a raw numbers thing and not a percentage compared to percentage of the population thing, which is what you'd need.
I gave you the percentage vs the percentage of blacks who are police killers or just murderers. As a total proportion of the US population (12%) blacks are overrepresented in police shootings by roughly x2.5, in murder by x4, and in police killers by x3.5.

The obvious problem with those numbers isn't with the number who are being killed by the police.

Plus you don't source your think beyond the picture, we've no idea where it came from.
Washington Post.

Peter Moskos, assistant professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice at the City University of New York, decided to use figures from the website Killed by Police, as FBI data on kills by race are incomplete.

Based on that data, Mr. Moskos reported that roughly 49 percent of those killed by officers from May 2013 to April 2015 were white, while 30 percent were black. He also found that 19 percent were Hispanic and 2 percent were Asian and other races.

I actually think Asians might be very slightly over represented in those numbers, vs their percentage of the murder rates and police killer numbers.

Also, Nihlus, your attempt to poison-pill Bernie Sanders on the basis of economics was a clue, but now you've given yourself away as a right-wing concern troll by standing up for these assholes.
How is "the cops are not SUPPOSED to go in guns blazing" a right wing position? Is this thread really so insane that anything other than "shoot everyone" is considered "right wing troll"? Is "lax immigration laws are good" a right wing troll position? What about "fear mongering about China is stupid", is that right wing? Or "having so many guns in this country results in a poisonous culture of fear, unlike in Britain"? Last I checked, right wingers are supposed to dislike sissy Europoors, think China is the devil, think dirty immigrants are taking err jerbs, think guns are good for the FREE CITIZENS of MURIKA, and be in favor of the police using a huge amount of force.

Oh wait, I've got it. Having a basic education in economics, that's the right wing troll giveaway.

Police have the lawful right to enter a premises and serve a warrant. Impeding this right is in and of itself a felony offense. The error at Waco was that the cops failed to properly de-escalate the situation, not that it was their fault to begin with. The residents of that compound killed themselves rather than face capture.
If those nutbars were going to kill themselves, most of them would have found a better method than burning themselves alive with the gas the Feds shot into the compound.

Also, more than 20 children died at Waco. You can see why no one wants to repeat it.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:53:30 AM by Nihlus1

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109924: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:52:59 AM

Edit 2:

Thign is we're specifically talking about the unjustified ones, what percentage of unjustified police shooting victims do blacks make up? That's the number that matters, I don't think people are particularly bothered about armed people being shot by the police, it's the unarmed ones we care about, and they seem to mainly be black.

As for Waco, has anyone in this situation actually called for a guns blazing approach? That seems like a strawman.

edited 28th Jan '16 11:57:19 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#109925: Jan 28th 2016 at 11:55:05 AM

One of the Oregon militia had a twitter feed where he had a post that said "NEVER STAND DOWN" and then one tagged about half an hour later that said "I'm cold and I want to go home."


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