TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#109776: Jan 27th 2016 at 11:44:01 AM

or the highly respected Congressional Budget Office?
The CBO shouldn't be as easily trusted as before. Republicans co'opted it in the last two years and put the squeeze on them to bias their reports to supply theory/trickle down economics via dynamic scoring or face defunding and being shut down and closed.

Not that you shouldn't have some faith in them, but keep in mind their well, so to speak, has been poisoned by quackery.

edited 27th Jan '16 11:52:15 AM by PotatoesRock

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109777: Jan 27th 2016 at 11:45:44 AM

[up][up][up]

As Potatoes pointed out, though, a number of low-wage businesses (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, BK, etc.) exploit low-income workers of all stripes and then use the social safety net to cover the difference, effectively using the government to subsidize their workers while posting multi-billion dollar Net profits.

Although I'll also admit that that's a fault with our current expectations when it comes to capitalism - we expect 'nothing' but growth, higher profits, bigger bottom lines, and larger dividends year after year, which is a 100% unreal expectation to have. It'll take a cultural shift to get out of that massive pitfall.

edited 27th Jan '16 11:47:45 AM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109778: Jan 27th 2016 at 11:59:31 AM

No, it's not, especially after scaling for GST. Certainly not enough that a minimum wage twice as high as Canada's after introducing free healthcare would make a damn bit of sense.

Dude. You cannot deny the existence of the entire industry of medical tourism that is profiting a shitton out of U.S citizens seeking treatment abroad with the final argument of "NUH HUH IT DOESNT!"

The liver transplant surgery in taiwan is but one example. Compare 91k to 300k.

Over 750.000 U.S citizens seek treatment abroad and the number is only predicted to grow

"Nuh huh!" Won't cut it. The lack of affordable healthcare (not counting Obamacare, which is relatively new) is something deadly to the U.S citizen's pockets.

Not that long. I can space it over many years in tiny increments and am making $45,500 (after taxes, since it's a median) right out of college, with my income only growing from there. Even if I pay it all in only four years, I'm still receiving $40,000+ a year for myself (which is, what, on par with France's household income?) in a place with relatively low costs of living. College being crushingly expensive in the USA is a myth. If you're middle class, you get away with a $20,000 debt spaced out over fifteen years including loans for your food and rent (increase by 10% or less for interest, don't scale for inflation). If you're actually poor, you can practically go for free, as the majority of UC students do. So who's paying for them? Surprise, it's upper middle class families that make more than 90k/ a year.

Except make those numbers the following:

Of the 1,791,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2011–12, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (367,000), social sciences and history (179,000), health professions and related programs (163,000), psychology (109,000), and education (106,000). At the master’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (192,000) and education (178,000). At the doctor’s degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of health professions and related programs (62,100), legal professions and studies (46,800), education (10,000), engineering (8,700), biological and biomedical sciences (7,900), psychology (5,900), and physical sciences and science technologies (5,400).

Then go on over to The medians and take into account the majority are going to be in the mid 30k rates

Get sick once during that time and you get screwed.

It is not that college is expensive or not, it is that college is expensive compared to the incomes available.

This is assuming you even find a job, since graduation then employment rates were not that high specially post recession and even lower ifyou are a woman

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109779: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:14:18 PM

[up][up][up]Of course it can't be easily trusted; it doesn't agree with the mighty "Denmark is anti-free trade" Fighteer.tongue I just thought that, maybe, a well respected study of experts would hold at least a fraction of the credibility of an unsourced comment on the Internet.

[up][up]Then increase taxes on the wealthy and redistribute it via the social safety net and welfare. You know, like what the Nordics do. All increasing the minimum wage does is cause unemployment and transfer the burden of the payment from the wealthy to the middle class.

[up]Your conclusions are illogical, again. You showed that the majority of college graduates would be earning around the average, which is why it is, you know, an average. And that's not even considering it's going to be increasing over the years. $20,000- which includes living expenses over those four years- is a pittance when paid over several years with incomes that high. College being super expensive is another dumb myth (unless you're a triple digit income earning family; in which case it is expensive, because you're financing that UC 55%, but then you can damn well afford it).

The problem is that the US middle class wants to have a lot of luxuries they can't always afford. Most prominently, living space.

edited 27th Jan '16 12:18:24 PM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109780: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:16:28 PM

Don't put words in my mouth. I neither said nor implied that Denmark is anti-free trade. I said that the United States is deeply hypocritical on free trade, insisting that other countries open their barriers whilst engaging in a variety of anti-competitive practices.

I also said that driving wages down through unregulated immigrant labor and offshoring of manufacturing and service jobs does not inure to the benefit of the American public.

edited 27th Jan '16 12:17:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109781: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:21:11 PM

Actually, you said that Sanders' (anti-free trade) economic policy is similar to the Nordic policy (to the point you quite rudely accused me of making stuff up when I said otherwise). Which it isn't. At all.

The only way you couldn't have actually been saying "Denmark is anti-free trade" is if you had absolutely no idea what Sanders' economic policy actually was.

And I said the wages being driven down from immigration is largely a harmful myth (the "foreigners" reinvest cash in the American economy and create new jobs, and unemployment dropped like a brick at the height of outsourcing), while the outsourcing of jobs actually helps most Americans by increasing their purchasing power. In addition to helping foreigners by quintupling their wages, but they're mostly Chinese, who should be poor and destitute lest they surpass us.tongue

edited 27th Jan '16 12:24:52 PM by Nihlus1

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109782: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:21:13 PM

[up][up]

The problem there is we then run into the "Job Creators" and "Class Warfare" mentality that sees an increase on taxes for anyone as inherently unhealthy for the economy, while cutting them is always better for everyone.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109783: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:23:40 PM

[up][up]Sanders publicly admired Denmark's social welfare and healthcare programs. That had nothing to do with free trade policy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#109784: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:23:51 PM

Did anyone actually read that Department of Labour link?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109785: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:26:22 PM

[up][up][up]Which is an entirely separate problem from the minimum wage discussion.

[up][up]Except you were the one disputing that he did want to follow their economic model after I said he didn't. You cited him wanting to follow their social model as evidence, ignoring that the social model had nothing to do with the economic model I was talking about.

edited 27th Jan '16 12:29:00 PM by Nihlus1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109787: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:29:09 PM

Your conclusions are illogical, again.

IF they get employment (30% chance they did not). IF they studied certain things (Which over half of them dont). IF they were part of those who graduated...and IF the universities were as lenient on their payment as you profess...

Yeah your average college grad is going to be fine

edited 27th Jan '16 12:30:44 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109788: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:37:45 PM

And I said the wages being driven down from immigration is largely a harmful myth (the "foreigners" reinvest cash in the American economy and create new jobs, and unemployment dropped like a brick at the height of outsourcing), while the outsourcing of jobs actually helps most Americans by increasing their purchasing power. In addition to helping foreigners by quintupling their wages, but they're mostly Chinese, who should be poor and destitute lest they surpass us.

Investment does not "create new jobs". Not now, when we are mired in a deep wage-productivity slump. The financial markets these days form a closed circle, withholding increasingly large amounts of money from circulation. Investment in production capacity fulfills demand, but it can't create demand that does not exist except via the trickle-down effects of increasing employment, which cannot redound to the benefit of the investor at the scale that the private sector is capable of managing.

Investment in infrastructure does boost demand, but I don't think that the Chinese are paying for us to build roads and bridges. You are immersed in the supply-side myth and need to understand basic economic principles.

Outsourcing jobs may make products cheaper (although I would point out cases where it instead merely allows the producer to increase its markup — *cough* Apple) but it does not increase the incomes available to American consumers with which to buy those products. If you are unemployed, it matters not if a car is 20% less expensive than it would be if manufactured domestically. You still can't buy it.

Reaching abroad, the idea that exports are necessary for a nation to build its internal standard of living is not necessarily true. What developing nations need is domestic investment: the kind that provides local jobs to buy locally produced products. Trying to boost one's domestic economy by selling shit to rich foreigners that is made with cheap labor is a shell game; it doesn't provide nearly the degree of improvement that one might imagine and most of the profits are skimmed off by the wealthy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#109789: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:45:07 PM

Investment in infrastructure does boost demand, but I don't think that the Chinese are paying for us to build roads and bridges.

No, you'll be paying the Chinese to build roads, bridges and power stations. smile

Reaching abroad, the idea that exports are necessary for a nation to build its internal standard of living is not necessarily true. What developing nations need is domestic investment: the kind that provides local jobs to buy locally produced products.

Of course, that depends on what local resources are available.

On another note, I take it then that you support autarky and closed economies, whenever possible? For example, would you like to re-open coal mines to provide jobs and reduce imports?

edited 27th Jan '16 12:47:06 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109790: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:46:58 PM

Coal mines are obsolete in almost all ways imaginable, so that's not really the kind of thing I have in mind, no. A reliance on exports seems to be the standard path for most developing nations, but I find myself doubting its efficacy.

I do not advocate closed economies, but I strongly oppose the idea of predatory economies: the obsolete mercantilist viewpoint that one must dominate one's neighbors through trade.

edited 27th Jan '16 12:48:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#109791: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:48:59 PM

So I'm watching the news right now: local authorities have finally called the occupation of the wildlife refuge illegal and said that the occupiers need to leave. If they said how they plan to get those people out I missed it. And it does appear that it's the tarp guy that died, since they showed the interview with him flat out saying he'd rather die than end up in a cell from last week.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109792: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:50:12 PM

Y'all Qaeda is leaving that refuge in body bags or in handcuffs. They get to choose which.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109793: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:54:23 PM

Wait, did something else happen? Last I thought that the thing was vacated now, since the two bundies were arrested. Was I wrong?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#109794: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:57:56 PM

No, it was clarifying things. They only arrested like six to eight people, and I'm pretty sure there's still at least a few people left at the refuge. I don't think they were ever having just everyone leave the place at the same time, that would have made it too easy for the feds/police to get in there and prevent them from reentering.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#109795: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:58:23 PM

@Nihlus

Actually, that wouldn't solve the underlying issue that companies are posting multi-billion dollar (net!) profits while paying their employees so little they still qualify for Welfare. Business expenses and personal expenses are two entirely different fields, and the low wages fall under business.

Aside from that, as Fighteer pointed out, in spite of record productivity rates, the average pay for workers has remained stagnant. TL;DR - net income for businesses has gone way up (74%), but income for the employees has remained flat (9% growth) in spite of being the ones driving that income by becoming more efficient. Whereas the guys at the top of the pyramid have seen a''937% increase in salaries (including stock options) since the 1978. For comparison, the CEO-to-worker ratio in '78 was $20-$1, while it was $295.9-$1 in 2013 (after peaking at $383.4-$1 in 2000).

Although one thing worth noting, that also ties in with what you're saying, is that this is partially due to the globalized economy - and the hope is that the exploited workers in China, India, Burma, and basically all of Southeast Asia start taking notice and pushing for the same reforms as we in the US did when we industrialized.

edited 27th Jan '16 1:15:04 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109796: Jan 27th 2016 at 12:58:27 PM

[up][up]They aren't precisely smart.

edited 27th Jan '16 12:58:53 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#109797: Jan 27th 2016 at 1:04:16 PM

Note of interest:

Billmon, a respected US Politics Blogger on Twitter is arguing that if Trump fails to secure nomination and Sanders does, Trump's voters oddly enough, swing from Trump to Sanders based on current analysis.

Similar analysis indicates Republicans are in a dilemma with the general, with HRC:

  • Trump vs HRC: Republicans lose Single Women, Hispanics, Other Minorites
  • Not-Trump vs HRC or Sanders: Republicans lose Trump's white voter base to Democrats or they stay home.

Basically, Republicans self ratfucked. Whoever provides most leftist/protectionist/nativist Econ platform wins election based on current platform. Americans are saying no to globalization, as is their choice.

Good secondary point:

Drives home extent to which downscale white voters are GOP's iron lung at presidential level: Keep it alive, but still paralyzed.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109799: Jan 27th 2016 at 1:07:34 PM

Something I should note, whether or not it is overall good policy, the idea of $15 wage is not some wild, unprecedented idea that is unique to Sanders.

O'Malley also supports it (Clinton supports $12/hour) and it's being advocated in a lot of American cities and I think adopted in at least one (Seattle? Others?)

So no, supporting a $15 minimum wage does not make Sanders a Jan Peron-esque revolutionary.

And yeah, as others have noted, that's not a particularly high wage in this economy, especially because most people who work minimum wage jobs are supporting families. The "teenage burger flipper" is no longer the reality.

[up] Again? Although for what it's worth, I actually wouldn't be surprised if true. I've heard that some of Bernie's more vocal supporters don't play well with non-whites who are skeptical of him.

edited 27th Jan '16 1:08:37 PM by Hodor2

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#109800: Jan 27th 2016 at 1:08:24 PM

[up][up][up][up]They aren't exactly stupid either; For all that they've been coming and going it wasn't ever all of them at once. I mean, one of the basics of seizing a place is you keep someone there; they knew that much. They got in because no one was occupying the building at the time they arrived.

[up][up]Ok so that was crushed as a troll post. Was it not true or something?

edited 27th Jan '16 1:10:23 PM by AceofSpades


Total posts: 417,856
Top