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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109626: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:27:12 PM

They do have to pay taxes, plus Median is calculated after taxes. Plus it being better then their home countries doesn't make it not exploitative, if they're being paid less then minute wage they're being exploited.

Also the numbers are per household income, are such households not normal bigger then their American born equivalent? Thus the income is being generated by more people, in support of more people, yet it is lower.

edited 26th Jan '16 5:28:26 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#109627: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:30:22 PM

last I checked... Sanders has always supported making the United States a civilised nation, it's Clinton who points whatever direction the political wind is turning

advancing the front into TV Tropes
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#109628: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:36:22 PM

[up]Being a political jellyfish is not a desirable trait in a national leader. You need to be able to make unpopular but necessary decisions.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#109629: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:38:34 PM

[up][up]Phrases like that are basically worthless. I can guess at what you mean by "civilised nation" but without clarification it's just buzzwords.

edited 26th Jan '16 5:39:08 PM by LSBK

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#109630: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:39:25 PM

Besides making more than they'd be doing in their home countries is no indicative of a decent living, the are less miserable than they'd be but it in no means they are living decent lives.

The minimum wage in metropolitan areas, the one the majority of the people live in, plain sucks to support a single person, even less an entire family.

Inter arma enim silent leges
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#109631: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:40:15 PM

lack of health care, university fees, ridiculous jingoism, no living wage, non existent unions, you know, things that should have been left behind in the last century

edited 26th Jan '16 5:40:59 PM by FieldMarshalFry

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109632: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:41:53 PM

I notice that a lot of your arguments are "President X won't do anything, even when he said would". Like "Sanders said he'd prevent more immigration but he will not actually prevent more immigration".

Oh they will do things, they just wont work.

If things worked and happened because you said they would, then just saying I am going to lose weight would be a magical and amazing way for me to lose weight but it's not going to happen just because I say it will now, will it. Or like saying "I am going to drop burgers from my diet to drop weight" (And I DO drop burgers, just not fries or any other greasy food, and make no exercise) so even if I drop the burgers I am still not going to lose weight.

Same thing applies to Trump. He sayid he'd build a wall and that the wall would stop illegal immigration. I have no doubt in my mind Trump would actually build that wall, and I have no doubt in my mind that the wall would also not stop illegal immigration.

Same as Sanders. He said he'd do all those things but none of those would stop immigration.

Which is vastly different from accusing me of saying "You say presidents will do things but then that they wont". They will do things. They just wont work.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109633: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:45:53 PM

@Silasw: There would be more people per house, though not by a whole lot. The average household size in Mexico is 3.9 people, to the US average of 2.6; the average for illegal immigrants should be smaller considering they're richer than Mexicans (also, 59% of all undocumented immigrants are from Mexico; the rest are mostly from Central America). But you know, even assuming dual-earners, it's still way above minimum wage. I don't think this is at all unreasonable when you remember they're on average very poorly educated (less than half have a high school education or better) and many are probably not even fluent in English.

Ask yourself if $41,500 ($36,000 is for 2007, 8 years of inflation happened) after taxes (which is, I dunno, $56,000 before taxes?) is enough to comfortably sustain 3 or 4 people in a country with costs of living lower than yours. Then remember that most Mexican/Central American immigrants (36k is just for illegals) would make more than that.

For what it's worth, reputable organizations like the Institution on Taxation and Economic Policy don't assume the the average immigrant household is that much bigger than the national average when doing their calculations. So it's probably not too far off.

Sanders doesn't care about ending exploitation, he'd rather bar them from entering the country at all to live in places with objectively worse QOL. Clinton is the one who wants more and easier immigration.

[up]They can't end immigration, but they CAN reduce it. And they definitely can wreck US trade policy with protectionism. That's within the power of the president.

edited 26th Jan '16 6:41:53 PM by Nihlus1

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#109634: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:14:58 PM

If Europe is what civilized societies look like than I would prefer savagery.evil grin

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#109635: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:15:59 PM

[up] Now I'm suddenly reminded of this quote: "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without knowing civilization."[lol]

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Know-age Since: May, 2010
#109636: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:19:02 PM

Fear not, Jack, soon we will conquer and subjugate the lesser nations once and for all.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#109637: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:19:04 PM

Given my (admittedly very incomplete) understanding of the situation of many European countries at the moment I'm not sure what the point holding your nose up (or at least as high as you used to be able to) at the US is. Even if I do agree that the things mentioned are important.

edited 26th Jan '16 6:19:32 PM by LSBK

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109638: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:19:07 PM

I agree that Sanders wants to bar them but I think that's because he believes (perhaps wrongly as you've been arguing) that they're being exploited. Let's face it that's a commone belief here (you certainly here about exploited Mexican fruit pickets often enough) and dollars to donuts many of us are better informed then some politicians.

As for Euopre, we're generally ahead socially, but economically we're being pretty stupid.

edited 26th Jan '16 6:20:03 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109639: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:25:13 PM

They can't end immigration, but they CAN reduce it. And they definitely can wreck US trade policy with protectionism. That's within the power of the president.

Yes. They can reduce it. But not by any of the measures so far mentioned by any of the politicans with the tiny exception of one that might help a bit.

Also, is it true? They areested Yall Qaeda apparently. Boo. They were funny.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#109640: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:26:59 PM

IIRC, one of the things Sanders got right is that is way better invest on the countries that people are fleeing from to reduce poverty there than it is just for the US bear the burden of taking everyone in.

Inter arma enim silent leges
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#109641: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:51:09 PM

Is there anyone running that isn't anti-immigration, because I'm worried over either Sanders and Trump winning, in that, if either wins, how am I going to migrate to the US after college to work as a writer?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#109642: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:56:24 PM

Bundy and several of the other wackjobs in Oregon have been arrested; shots have apparently been fired as well. No reports of injuries/fatalities yet.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#109643: Jan 26th 2016 at 6:56:57 PM

[up][up]Depends what you mean by anti immigrant. All of the Dems support legal immigration, along with most of the Republicans, though the extent and enthusiasm of this support varies from candidate to candidate, with the Dems being far more accepting than the GOP.

edited 26th Jan '16 6:57:08 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109644: Jan 26th 2016 at 7:02:21 PM

[up]Sanders doesn't. He thinks immigrants are taking American jobs. He has made this clear; his logic is that immigration is bad because the US doesn't have enough jobs to go around. This is also why he opposes H-1B visas and guest worker programs, and supports suspension of free trade agreements and the implementation of tariffs. Sanders doesn't want foreigners involved because he thinks they're taking a piece of a limited pie. Once you remember that he's running under the assumption of the lump of labor fallacy, everything he says is "logical".

[up][up][up]That'd be Clinton.

edited 26th Jan '16 7:04:55 PM by Nihlus1

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#109645: Jan 26th 2016 at 7:05:29 PM

I haven't been paying too much attention to the US elections because... well, I don't live there nor intend to ever live there in the future, and at the moment I'm more worried about how my own country can sustain itself, and even then I don't know as much as I think I should.

I'd like to know, however, who are the candidates running for office. You could describe them if you want to (as in, you don't think I'm lazy or something for asking this here, which I'd disagree with but w/e), but if you do I'd like to know which ones you agree the most and which ones you disagree the most, because as I understand it there'll always be bias, even unconsciously.

Additionally, as far as I'm aware, both parties at the US are right-winged, is that correct? I mean, when the Liberals are the most agreeable people around, you've got me worried. If anything, I guess I'd find them more right-winged than some of the Brazilian parties, due to our different histories, but, eh, I guess I shouldn't just briefly mention another country's politics here if I'm not going in-depth on it.

@Hallow Hawk: Maybe try Canada instead? tongue That's my current plan XD

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#109647: Jan 26th 2016 at 7:09:09 PM

Seems they got Ammon Bundy in a traffic stop and someone started shooting.

Oh really when?
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#109648: Jan 26th 2016 at 7:21:04 PM

Hopefully no officers/bystanders were hurt.

EDIT: CNN is reporting at least one fatality, likely a suspect.

edited 26th Jan '16 7:22:56 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#109649: Jan 26th 2016 at 7:23:43 PM

Most recent version fothe report (the headline when I clicked the link just now) says 1 killed. Just hope the YeeHawidsts didn't get a WalMartyr


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