TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#109601: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:20:27 PM

Sanders is to Trump as a banana peel on the road is to a landfill.

Edit- Weird page topper.

edited 26th Jan '16 3:20:38 PM by Hodor2

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109602: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:23:52 PM

[up][up]They're both anti-immigration (because they think unskilled immigrants are taking all the jobs) and extremely anti-free trade (the WTO is anti-American!), with a special dislike for China and NAFTA in particular. They also have similar stances on gun control.

edited 26th Jan '16 3:25:20 PM by Nihlus1

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#109603: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:28:10 PM

[up] Well I hardly think special dislike for China is badtongue. As long as it is defined as the current semi Communist Superpower about to surpass us in economic strength, and not the ethnic group, especially since their is another country calling itself China out their. I have confidence Sanders understand the distinction, Trump, and his supporters, I doubt that very much.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#109604: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:29:47 PM

Jack, China as it currently exists is a servant of the West.

How is it going to surpass us in any way, shape, or form?

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109605: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:36:57 PM

about to surpass us in economic strength,

Yeah because China is going to pull 7,000,000 millions of US$ (the GDP difference between the US and China (also know as the entire GDP of Germany and the UK combined)) of growth out of a hat, even know it missed its own growth targets in the last quarter of 2015. Come on Jack, at least try with your China fearmongering bullshit.

edited 26th Jan '16 3:38:16 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109606: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:38:03 PM

Well I hardly think special dislike for China is bad.
Sure, if you're criticizing its human rights record or something. Sanders and Trump, on the other hand, criticize US free trade with China, which has massively boosted both economies and caused China- the world's most populated country- to experience multifold increases in wages. Unemployment fell throughout the 80s and the 90s in the USA while millions of jobs were being outsourced, and it's still at more or less the ideal level of 5% right now as free trade is booming and immigration is at an all time high. As I said earlier, money spent in China doesn't disappear into the aether.

As long as it is defined as the current semi Communist Superpower about to surpass us in economic strength,
China hasn't been Communist ever since they realized that Communism is stupid and was keeping their nation of over a billion poor enough that it effectively had less money than Canada. It's also not going to surpass the USA. Its growth has slowed, the massive boom it experienced in the 1990s and 2000s is not the normal state of affairs.

and not the ethnic group, especially since their is another country calling itself China out their. I have confidence Sanders understand the distinction, Trump, and his supporters, I doubt that very much.
Sanders' policies basically ensure a lot of suffering for a billion Chinese people, there's not a lot of distinction in this context.

edited 26th Jan '16 3:42:53 PM by Nihlus1

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#109607: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:48:06 PM

Wait a fucking minute, how is Sanders immigrant policies which is focuses in preventing the excessive gentrification and exploitative laissez faire business practices pushing down people to bellow minimum wage comparable to Trump's "see all those brown people? Fuck 'em, shoot 'em and kick 'em outta here" immigration policy?

edited 26th Jan '16 3:48:22 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109608: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:53:05 PM

Wait a fucking minute, how is Sanders immigrant policies which is focuses in preventing the excessive gentrification and exploitative laissez faire business practices pushing down people to bellow minimum wage
As has been repeatedly spelled out, Sanders doesn't want to stop immigration to prevent "excessive gentrification and exploitation" (immigration creates jobs Americans actually work at, and results in much, much wealthier immigrants; the "below minimum wage exploitation" is a myth even if just talking about illegals). He wants to stop immigration because he thinks they're stealing jobs that should go to natives. The only place where he differs from Trump is that he supports amnesty for illegal immigrants already here, while Trump doesn't... which doesn't matter at all because the President doesn't have the power to kick them out, and most of the population supports amnesty.

His entire economic policy is based around the lump of labor fallacy.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:03:02 PM by Nihlus1

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#109609: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:53:37 PM

[up][up] They both don't favor completely and totally open borders without any restrictions.

edited 26th Jan '16 3:56:10 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109610: Jan 26th 2016 at 3:57:25 PM

No. They both oppose "large numbers of unskilled workers" being brought in because "they compete with [unemployed] kids". It's not that they just oppose completely open borders, it's that they think immigration period is bad for the economy because dey took err jerbs.

I don't see why there's still confusion about this. Sanders stated cleanly and plainly why he opposes immigration. Because he thinks they're taking American jobs. Do you seriously not see the logic he's using? Or the problem with said logic?

edited 26th Jan '16 4:00:01 PM by Nihlus1

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109611: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:00:00 PM

Trump also wants all Muslims, including American citizens barred from the US, though I'm not sure if that falls under immigration or security.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#109612: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:11:19 PM

Nice quote mining. Sanders is against guest worker programs, not immigration.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109613: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:11:20 PM

@Nihlus1: If that was once Sanders' policy, it is not now. So do us a favor and stop poisoning the well. You're starting to sound like a Trumpite.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:11:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#109614: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:19:00 PM

OH SWEET MERCIFUL GOD EMPEROR THEY'RE SPREADING!

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109615: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:21:57 PM

[up][up][up]I hate having to link the same article for the fourth time, but no. He is against immigration. Because of the lump of labor fallacy. This is why his support among the Latino community is like 20%. This will screw him in important borderline states Florida.

“I frankly do not believe that we should be bringing in significant numbers of unskilled to workers to compete with [unemployed] kids,” Sanders said. “I want to see these kids get jobs.”

“You bring a lot of unskilled workers into this country, what do you think happens to that 36 percent?”

I mean. He clearly states that he wants to prevent more unskilled immigration because he thinks that they're taking jobs that Americans should have, and somehow this gets twisted into "he supports immigration". I don't even know what to say. The sheer mental gymnastics required to get to that point...

[His opposition to guest worker programs is BS too btw; Without guest worker programs those workers are either staying in their home nations and working a lower paid job or they're sneaking across the border to work as illegal immigrants...at lower pay and worse working conditions. Guest worker programs are very good for immigrants]

If that was once Sanders' policy, it is not now. So do us a favor and stop poisoning the well. You're starting to sound like a Trumpite.
You do realize that this absolutely does not contradict what he earlier said about immigrants taking jobs that should go to Americans, right?

Explain exactly how increased immigration is conducive to his clearly stated stance that America doesn't have enough jobs and that immigrants should stop taking them.

Stop denying what Sanders is actually saying, you're starting to sound like a Sanders supporter.tongue It's impossible to actually talk about his policies if you're twisting them into the exact opposite of his stated meaning.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:36:04 PM by Nihlus1

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#109616: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:22:31 PM

If Sanders wants amnesty for illegal immigrants that are already here, a means for citizenship would obviously solve the problem of jobs being in the hands of immigrants, because they'll then be in the hands of Americans.tongue

But coming from his focus on exploitation (which of course can be scrutinized), he would also have to account for illegal immigrants that come here in the future, to prevent the same situation from happening again, and so it's not all that surprising that he would move in the direction of restrictions and regulations rather than a more open border.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:23:39 PM by Eschaton

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109617: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:29:21 PM

Sanders being in favour of reduced unskilled immigration is not the same as Trump, Trump wants no migration, believes most Central American immigrants are criminals (compared to Sanders seeing them (rightly or wrongly) as victims), wants to deport those already here and ban all Muslims.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:30:01 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109618: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:32:51 PM

But coming from his focus on exploitation (which of course can be scrutinized), he would also have to account for illegal immigrants that come here in the future, to prevent the same situation from happening again, and so it's not all that surprising that he would move in the direction of restrictions and regulations rather than a more open border.
Here's the thing though. That policy isn't actually helping anyone that is supposedly being exploited. Barring unskilled immigrants from entering the country doesn't help Americans, because the jobs Sanders thinks the immigrants are stealing are not the jobs college graduates want, and those immigrants spending money actually creates the jobs those graduates want. It especially doesn't help the immigrants, who are paid far, far better here than they would be in their home countries. Sanders tries to handwave this by saying that the corporate conspiracy is out to pay immigrants $2 an hour for their work and then make that the norm for everyone, which is completely false as the average illegal immigrant household earns 72% of the US median.

Speaking of which. If I did sound like a Trumpite, I'd be opposing immigration, saying that poor immigrants are stealing American jobs, fear-mongering about China, opposing free trade, and saying that our entire trade relation with China is a mistake. I do not do these things. I have spent my time here pointing out why these things are stupid.

Sixthhokage1 Since: Feb, 2013
#109619: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:35:15 PM

Sanders' quotes are in reference to guest worker programs, whereas he supports forms of true immigration with paths to citizenship instead of leaving the country again at the end of one's contract.

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109620: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:39:45 PM

No, they're not.

Sanders Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...

Klein But it would make ...

Sanders Excuse me ...

Klein It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn’t it?

Sanders It would make everybody in America poorer—you're doing away with the concept of a nation state.…

What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you’re a white high school graduate, it’s 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African-American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I see zero mentions of guest worker programs, and several mentions of just "immigration".

What part of "You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?" is so ambiguous? How can he both support immigration AND believe in the lump of labor fallacy AND think that the USA doesn't have enough jobs to hand out?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109621: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:41:20 PM

[up]X3 On the average illegal immigrant income, is that the average for low skilled Central Americans, or a much higher number due to the presence of middle class well educated individuals who've overstayed visas (often student ones)?

Because the average for all behind higher doesn't mean that Central Americans aren't being exploited.

[up] Because one can support immigration without supporting large amounts of low wage immigration.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:43:30 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#109622: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:42:52 PM

[up][up][up]Been there done that with a J1 visa on a Work and Travel program, your employer pays the minimum legal wage allowed and basically the worker has almost no rights.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:43:07 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109623: Jan 26th 2016 at 4:43:13 PM

[up][up]Considering the source, the subject, and the other statistics quoted in the study, it's definitely not talking about overstaying students.

"Unskilled" immigration, you mean. But no, they really can't, because Sanders' whole point was that there's not enough jobs to go around.

EDIT: Everything Sanders says makes a lot more sense when you remember that he wants to please his union support base, and that he'll bend any of his stated principles to do so. See, for example, Sanders not saying anything about too big to fail when it comes to the auto companies, or about the tax payer burdening the expense of auto worker pensions. He was totally for the auto-bailout. His protectionist measures (tariffs + the termination of free trade agreements) would basically be letting one part of the country (unions, manufacturing industries) extract rent from the rest of the country through higher prices.

edited 26th Jan '16 4:56:27 PM by Nihlus1

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#109624: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:00:27 PM

You're right it's a median, thing is so is the US born number, illegal immigrants still earn only 3 quarters of what American born people do, and it doesn't ever grow for them.

Plus even if the "unskilled migrants being exploited" thing is a myth, that doesn't mean Sanders doesn't belive it and hasn't based his policy off it, politicians belive in and base policy on myths all the time.

edited 26th Jan '16 5:00:39 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109625: Jan 26th 2016 at 5:08:19 PM

You're right it's a median, thing is so is the US born number, illegal immigrants still earn only 3 quarters of what American born people do, and it doesn't ever grow for them.
3/4 of the US average is a lot better than what they'd get in their home countries. For reference, the median household income of Mexico is 1/6 of the US median. Heck, it's on the level of Israel or Belgium; sure they're likely working longer hours to get that, but then again, less than half have a high school education or better, and they don't have to pay many taxes. So it balances out. And these are illegals, mind; counting legal unskilled labor would increase the average.

Plus even if the "unskilled migrants being exploited" thing is a myth, that doesn't mean Sanders doesn't belive it and hasn't based his policy off it, politicians belive in and base policy on myths all the time.
Normally I would agree with you. However, Sanders' other policies, and his history as a senator, just paint a way too consistent picture. His positions wax and wane according to whatever will make him popular with his chosen support base; that is, nativist protectionists; middle class white liberals and unionists.

edited 26th Jan '16 5:12:49 PM by Nihlus1


Total posts: 417,856
Top